(0:03) So, let me introduce myself first. (0:07) I began practicing Falun Gong since I was 22 years old, 1993. (0:13) And I built my basic moral compass in practicing Falun Gong.(0:23) And about, let me think, about six years in Falun Gong to 1999, (0:35) the Chinese Communist Party began stamping down Falun Gong. (0:40) And I found myself in the front line of resisting their very violent cramping down. (0:49) So, I helped Western journalists to interview people persecuted by the CCP.(0:57) And I found an encryption communication tool, an encrypted communication tool, (1:04) an encryption communication tool to establish the communication channel between journalists and us (1:14) and between the fellow practitioners inside China and abroad China. (1:21) So, I was on the top of the most wanted list in China since 2000 to 2002. (1:30) And finally, I was caught with my wife, my ex-wife in 2002, August.(1:38) And I spent nearly 10 years in China’s prison. (1:44) And I went to the States in 2013 until now. (1:50) And after I went abroad, I found that the practice of Falun Gong is really bad.(1:59) They are full of controlling and threatening and such kind of thing and manipulation in the whole practice. (2:12) And since 2017, I heard of the darkness inside Shen Yun. (2:18) And in January of 2021, two Shen Yun dancers, former dancers, Sun Zai, Cheng Qinglin, Jeff Sun, and Ashley Cheng, (2:35) came to me and told their stories to me.(2:40) And I decided to expose all of those things until now. (2:45) We met together. That is my story.And how about you? (2:51) Yeah, thanks for having me. (2:54) First of all, I would like to say that it’s incredible that you spent 10 years in Chinese prison. (3:01) The US prison system is obviously no fun, to say the least.(3:07) But I can’t imagine what it’s like to be in China and imprisoned, what kind of situation that is. (3:13) And also, I think it’s very interesting that you were previously on the Chinese Most Wanted and now you’re in the FLG Most Wanted. (3:23) So you’re always on the Most Wanted, which is really interesting.(3:28) So me, I was not born into the practice. (3:34) I’m in my mid-20s now, but my mom picked up the practice. (3:40) Only my mom, not my dad.(3:42) She picked it up in about 2003. (3:45) So I was about a couple of years old at that point. (3:50) How she heard of it.(3:51) So the reason why I’m talking about her and not myself is because she still plays a very important role in my relationship with FLG today. (4:00) And to be honest with Shen Yun, I’ll call it SY. (4:05) You’ll call what? (4:06) I’ll call it SY.(4:08) Shen Yun, I’ll call it SY. (4:09) XY, right? (4:11) No, SSY. (4:14) SY, okay.(4:16) I just generally, I tend to call it the short version. (4:20) It’s a little easier to say. (4:23) But my mom has had a very big impact, obviously.(4:27) So she was brought into the practice by, I think, a local practitioner who she met. (4:32) She used to do this thing called WMA. (4:35) Do you know what that is? (4:37) Excuse me? (4:37) It’s WMA.(4:39) It’s kind of a pyramid scheme in a way. (4:43) It has a really bad reputation. (4:45) But it’s basically like you sell a, I don’t know if you call it a program, but you sell to other people and they sell to other people.(4:52) So it’s a big pyramid scheme. (4:58) It’s a big pyramid scheme, right. (4:59) But my mom, she was affiliated with that before.(5:02) So you can imagine what kind of person she is. (5:04) But she met somebody through that who introduced her to the practice. (5:11) And at the time, her dad was sick.(5:14) So it wasn’t even for her own benefit. (5:15) It was for my grandfather to somehow receive a blessing, a miracle from the practice and get better. (5:23) But he didn’t get better.(5:23) He had passed away. (5:25) And she began practicing it over here in the US. (5:30) My grandfather lives in China.(5:31) So your mother began practicing Falun Gong in the United States. (5:36) Yeah, I should say that. (5:37) Our family has been in the US for 30 something years.(5:40) We came here as, or my dad came here as a graduate student. (5:45) Can you speak a little more slowly because I cannot catch your words. (5:50) Okay.(5:51) Yeah. (5:51) Okay. (5:51) Sorry.(5:52) Yeah. (5:52) We’ve been in the US for more than three decades. (5:58) And we came as kind of, not as refugee, came as a graduate student family.(6:05) And so it’s been a long process for us after she started practicing. (6:13) It’s been about 20 years since then. (6:15) She’s changed a lot.(6:17) A couple of big things have happened. (6:20) So when I was in my early teenage years, I was already playing the violin, but it became more serious. (6:33) And we had this goal.(6:35) I say we because my mom claims that I had the goal myself. (6:39) But we were practicing and taking violin lessons to go to the mount. (6:46) So that was the end goal.(6:49) We wanted to participate with tours and things like that. (6:53) And so we did that audition. (6:55) I made it.(6:56) And then I was there for five years. (6:58) After five years, I decided I had enough. (7:03) A lot of people around me were also leaving and were skeptical of the entire company and their motives.(7:11) So for me, it was always about the money. (7:16) Money issue is huge for me because we’re students. (7:20) We don’t get paid, which is understandable.(7:23) Students don’t have to get paid. (7:24) But it seems strange that it was 95% students and we worked so many hours, so many shows. (7:32) I remember sitting on the bus for sometimes 15 to 17 hours a day.(7:37) Some others have talked about that. (7:40) For me, I never got physically damaged from that. (7:46) But it was definitely a psychological challenge.(7:49) It was torture, basically, because we couldn’t do anything except sleep, read. (7:56) It was not fun. (7:59) Did you hold your own passport or ID by yourself? (8:05) Yeah, I toured only twice.(8:10) Actually, I should say, no, I don’t think I held my own passport. (8:15) I didn’t have an ID. (8:16) Don’t think what? (8:17) I didn’t have my own passport on me.(8:21) It was handed over to the authorities, to the orchestra manager. (8:29) Can you freely in and out the compound? (8:35) No, you can’t. (8:38) A couple of things.(8:39) Some people, they get so used to that environment. (8:43) They don’t have the desire to leave. (8:45) Others are completely fine with just leaving that place once a week.(8:51) That place being the mountain. (8:52) Once a week to go to the local Walmart or things like that. (8:58) It’s a lot like prison.(9:02) You’re stuck there. (9:04) When you do leave, there’s a time limit. (9:09) Then you have no freedom.(9:13) I remember me and my friends, we would have our own devices secretly. (9:19) We would access Wi-Fi freely when we left the mountain for our weekly trip. (9:29) As far as after I left, what happened, I decided to try out Middletown.(9:40) The reason is because my family had moved to an area where the school district was very competitive. (9:47) We wanted to make sure that I graduated on time. (9:51) That was a big thing for me.(9:52) I wanted to graduate on time. (9:53) Obviously, the implication for graduating on time is that having a high school experience meant I was very behind academically. (10:09) As you can imagine.(10:10) Specifically with the curriculum. (10:13) They did the bare minimum. (10:14) They had a lot of what I deemed unnecessary classes like Chinese, Chinese history, complete waste of time, very little math, very little science.(10:28) I was very far behind. (10:30) Then I went to Middletown to try to graduate on time, which was successful. (10:33) Then I went to college and then I did graduate school.(10:37) Now I am in the middle of the storm. (10:42) That’s my story. (10:43) What storm? (10:45) The storm of the SY PR campaign against New York Times and New York Times and people speaking out against SY.(10:57) Just this whole thing. (11:04) They called you a student when you were in Shenyuan, right? (11:09) Yeah, I was a student. (11:11) Tell me, as a student, did you attend any commercial show with Shenyuan? (11:20) What is your time in everyday time? (11:25) Yeah.(11:26) Did you attend any commercial show? (11:30) Did I do a tour and play shows? (11:34) Yes. (11:34) Yes, I did. (11:35) I did two tours.(11:37) Compared to a lot of my peers, I did very little because I ended up leaving. (11:41) For the first three years I was there, I didn’t tour. (11:43) I was in what they call the preparatory music class.(11:48) That was more of a normal high school education where we specialized in our instruments in the music class, but we also took normal classes year-round because we weren’t touring. (12:00) The last two years, when I did tour, I played something like 90 shows and 110. (12:05) About 200 shows, how much did I get paid? (12:10) Probably a grand total of $2,000.(12:18) $2,000 for how many shows? 200 shows? (12:22) 200 shows. (12:23) 200 shows, you get $2,000. (12:26) The thing is, I was a student, so what they say is, okay, the first year you’re just a rookie.(12:35) They don’t feel the need to pay you for that. (12:38) Second year, as an allowance, as a stipend, I got $300. (12:44) As far as did I actually receive that money and if I can access those records, I don’t have access to that bank account anymore, so I honestly couldn’t tell you.(12:51) Even if you just consider the fact that I played 200 shows, saved however many sentient beings I saved. (13:00) 200 shows, how many hours on tour? (13:04) If you consider those hours as work hours, we took long bus rides, we had rehearsals, we had all kinds of sound checks. (13:14) Don’t forget, before a show, we have to set the stage and stuff.(13:22) After, we have to strike, as they say in industry terms. (13:28) I was talking to somebody about this the other day. (13:30) An average day for an orchestral male who has to do the striking and all that stuff is something like 17, 18 hours, something like that.(13:41) 18 hours per day. (13:43) Yeah, 18 hours per day. (13:45) Ridiculous.(13:47) I don’t think 18 hours working per day, we can call you a student. (13:54) I think we can call you a worker, maybe. (13:56) Yeah, sure.And it’s unheard of to work that many hours, right? (14:01) But let’s talk about how that will be justified on their side. (14:04) They’ll say, okay, you’re a student, and they might say that this is voluntary. (14:12) You can choose to do this, no one is forcing you.(14:15) But if you think about it, is that really the case? (14:17) Do you really get the choice to not participate in strike or wake up early to make sure all the cables are in line and all the things are plugged in? (14:28) Do you have a choice? No, you don’t. (14:31) If you want to leave, like when I left, there was already the talk of, okay, you’re going to have to pay for your tuition while you were here. (14:42) Well, I was there for five years.(14:44) Do you mean to say that I need to pay $150,000? (14:47) What school does that? (14:48) Have you heard of any schools in the entire world that make you pay your tuition after? (14:55) Yes, yes. (14:56) After you attended, you received a scholarship. (15:00) And so that money is, yeah, it’s yours, essentially.(15:08) When you’re setting up the stage, so-called Zhuangtai, is there any security method to protect you from being hurt? (15:20) Well, to be fair, I don’t think we were doing anything that was that dangerous, per se. (15:27) But I do wonder, so to answer your question, no, there was no security. (15:32) They kind of taught you on the go, so you learn kind of quickly.(15:39) And I wonder what the local labor union thought, what their theater people thought with these little kids doing all this work. (15:47) No idea what they thought, but it must have looked kind of funny to them. (15:50) That most companies, performing arts companies, come in with their huge productions and lots of people, and all older, right? (15:58) Us, average age, not even 20, probably.(16:02) How old were you when you were Zhuangtai? (16:06) I was, I turned 16 my first tour, so I was 15. (16:11) I started off when I was 15, and I left when I was 17. (16:15) So honestly, compared to a lot of other people who have their own stories to tell, I don’t have a lot to say.(16:21) But I do think that I understand the operation pretty well. (16:24) I even would say that I can justify their perspective. (16:31) But in justifying their perspective, you have to make a decision, right? (16:36) There comes a point where you have to think, either this is all true, and all these kids are being used for a righteous, sacred purpose, or this is all false, and it’s very highly illegal.(16:50) Yes. (16:51) So there’s no other thing. (16:53) And to continue on that idea, either Li is the creator, or he is a terrible, terrible criminal, and thousands of people in China are being persecuted like you, and are dying for him.(17:04) That’s the situation. (17:06) So it’s no joke. (17:08) Yes, you are right.(17:10) And tell me, when you were Zhuangtai, were there any younger boys or girls doing this job? (17:19) I mean, I was 15. (17:21) There were probably 14-year-olds, maybe even 13-year-olds. (17:26) 13 years.(17:28) The youngest person I know who has toured was maybe 12. (17:34) 12 years old. (17:39) Could you please tell me? (17:41) Yes, please go on.(17:42) But later on, they stopped having these super young kids, and they even stopped admitting super young children to the school, I guess because they couldn’t really do anything. (17:53) It was maybe a little early for them to tour. (17:57) And they had a lot of living, like lifestyle issues.(18:03) Are they a U.S. citizen or other country’s citizen? (18:10) What is their visa status? (18:14) They’re probably on student visas. (18:16) I’m assuming they’re on F1 student visas. (18:20) F1 student visas to the United States.(18:23) Yes. (18:24) They attend the tour on Europe, maybe? (18:28) Yes, absolutely. (18:30) So they have an F1 visa, but they attended the tour to Europe.(18:38) At the same time, the tour is a commercial tour, right? (18:41) Right, exactly. (18:42) So I wonder if the SY office has meticulously arranged people in orchestras or in companies based on what their visa status is. (18:54) I don’t know if that’s the case, but I can speak from personal experience.(18:59) When I did tour and we went overseas, plenty of people in my group were from Taiwan. (19:05) Not a lot of people from China or Hong Kong, but a lot of people from Taiwan. (19:10) And I’m assuming they’re all on student visas.(19:12) They toured commercially. (19:15) How about other countries? (19:17) For example, Germany, Europe, UK, and New Zealand and Australia? (19:24) Yeah, I had a couple of very close acquaintances from Australia. (19:31) They also toured with us.(19:33) In fact, one of the people mentioned in the article was my good buddy who is Australian. (19:40) Do you know Zhang Ruyi? (19:42) Zhang Ruyi, a female violinist. (19:45) Yes, yes.(19:46) Isn’t her name Catherine? (19:48) Tell me again, please. (19:51) Catherine, yes, exactly. (19:52) Catherine Zhang, yes.(19:54) I think I know her. (19:56) We may have overlapped during my time there, but I don’t remember if I’ve actually talked to her and if she knows who I am. (20:03) Catherine Zhang, Zhang Ruyi.(20:04) What about her? (20:08) Her mother is the first person coming to me to tell the story of Inside Shenyue. (20:18) But after she noticed that I exposed all of these kinds of things, and she turned to be on the other side and scolding me to destroy the law. (20:33) Interesting.(20:35) If you think about it, destroying the law shouldn’t be a concept because you can’t destroy the law. (20:42) So if the law is foolproof, if it’s perfect, if it’s already complete, as they say, then all these accusations we’re making are just false. (20:54) It’s a mockery of the law, and it can’t do anything.(20:59) But if they are scared, then they’re probably very scared. (21:04) So again, there’s no in-between here. (21:07) I’m wondering, what kind of stuff did her mom tell you? (21:14) Her daughter, Zhang Ruyi, Catherine Zhang.(21:17) Yeah, but when you were talking to the mom about what kind of stuff was exposed, I guess from the daughter, yeah. (21:23) She has been bullied very severely. (21:25) Oh, wow.(21:26) Just back in prison. (21:28) They use baojia. (21:31) Do you know what is baojia? (21:33) I can imagine, yeah.(21:34) A couple of people. (21:37) Two fellow students put her daughter under surveillance all the time. (21:43) Her daughter cannot behave independently.(21:48) She must be under surveillance, being escorted to anywhere. (21:54) It’s very funny. (21:55) Being humiliated so many times in public.(22:00) Right, right. (22:01) And being searched for body, searched for body publicly. (22:06) And her personal properties will be disclosed publicly and being thrown away all around.(22:14) Right, but that’s all part of cultivation, right? (22:18) It’s all a Xing Xing test, right? (22:21) I would say, go fuck themselves. (22:26) I don’t think, I don’t call it cultivation. (22:32) See, but that’s the thing.(22:33) You and I don’t see it as cultivation because we understand that they’re using the idea of cultivation. (22:39) And your moral ethics, the moral ethics that you originally signed up for, they’re using it against you. (22:44) And you can’t say anything.(22:46) If you say anything, it’s your fault. (22:48) You’re the issue. (22:49) And practitioners who think that what people who are exposing SY are doing, they seem to think that that’s something not to do.(23:03) I find it a little bit silly. (23:07) I talked with a couple of people. (23:13) I guess you could say they weren’t from the media.(23:19) But personally, I don’t have a lot of things I could offer that seem highly illegal. (23:24) I do have my personal experience of performing tour while being a student and having to do so many hours on the road during show days. (23:36) When you describe Catherine’s bullying, that never happened on my side.(23:43) The only thing that happened to me where it felt kind of like weirdly Chinese, weirdly communist, was I had talked to my fellow orchestra guys. (23:57) And I was kind of telling them, hey, everything feels really weird about this place, about tour. (24:02) And then someone told on me.(24:05) And then that was how they understood me to be a dangerous figure. (24:11) But the person who told on me isn’t even at the mountain anymore. (24:14) He’s long gone.(24:16) I don’t know what he’s doing. I don’t know if he’s still a practitioner. (24:18) But yeah, I guess part of today is I’m really curious what you think of everything.(24:25) So you mentioned that they should go fuck themselves and what they’re doing is illegal. (24:31) That seems to be clear. (24:32) But when it comes to the moral ethics of the practice, do you still agree with the moral ethics? (24:43) Till now, I still identify myself as a fundamental practitioner.(24:47) And the exact reason why I expose all of those things, because those things are directly against what I believe, truthfulness, compassion and forbearance. (24:59) To my knowledge, I think what I’ve heard are the textbook version of human trafficking and children abuse and children in slavery. (25:12) I mean, so I think it is my duty as a citizen or my duty of a practitioner to expose all of this kind of thing and reach out to the law enforcement to inform them of these kind of things.(25:28) I see. Yes. (25:31) It’s funny, you know, do you know the phrase if I wish? (25:35) Yes, that’s kind of the situation here.(25:37) And so why do you think law enforcement and people, you know, people who can actually do something about everything, but the company, why haven’t they done anything? (25:50) The mountain is very careful of everything they’re doing and they’re trying to have an anti or a PR campaign against what’s been brought to light about them. (26:04) Why? After so many years of tour, so many, you know, children being trafficked, you could say, we’ve had to play these shows and basically been free laborers. (26:14) How come, you know, whether it’s the government, whether it’s the nobody, nobody’s noticed.(26:21) How come? Do you understand my question? (26:45) No, I don’t think so. (26:50) Yeah. So my question to you is why, how come if what they’re doing is so problematic, how come no one realized before you and I guess a couple of other people? (27:03) You know, I think there are two sides.(27:07) One side is that the inner story, inner stories never being disclosed outside. (27:15) That is one story. The other story is that Falun Gong launched a very powerful campaign on the political field domain and on the whole public awareness domain.(27:31) So they just manipulate the public opinion on them. (27:38) So I think these two part is the main reason why the outside world do not notice that the crime in Falun Gong practice. (27:50) And in March 11th, March 11th, 2024, when Shen Yun Chu coming back from maybe Europe, I don’t know, coming from abroad and entering United States, (28:08) there was a Customs and Border Protection officer of Department of Homeland Security asking question to Theresa Du, who is a dancer of Shen Yun.(28:24) I know her personal. Yeah, it’s funny. (28:25) And two days later, two days later, Falun Gong motivate their relations on the federal congressman to question Department of Homeland Security saying that that officer is under the influence of Chinese Communist Party propaganda.(28:47) That is the reason why he asked maybe excessive questions to Theresa Du. (28:54) And you know, they have a lot of relationships in the political side. (29:00) So no one disclosed this kind of thing.(29:03) That is the reason why it is very necessary for us to disclose this kind of thing. (29:09) Because there are more than 600 people are now in the compound of Dragon Spring. (29:19) Yes.Well, here’s the thing. (29:21) They’re all young. So unlike a lot of other cults with compounds, these are all young people, all children or young adults who became young adults from becoming from youth.(29:35) And it’s psychological tormenting because, you know, they claim you’re free to leave. (29:43) But like I said, you’re not free to leave. (29:45) Yes.(29:46) It’s not just your physical body. (29:48) You can only leave the campus when you’re on break day or you have permission. (29:55) But it’s also if you leave, they say all sorts of things like you’re not going to be protected.(29:59) You’re not going to all these bad things will happen to you. (30:02) Yes. Yes.(30:04) That’s emotional. That’s manipulation. Right.(30:06) How is that? Okay. (30:08) And threats. I would call threats.(30:11) Right. (30:11) Psychological threats. Right.(30:13) It’s very complicated, too, because the practice is being persecuted. (30:19) That is not a speculation. That’s a fact.(30:23) So it’s so easy for them to say to blame others for wanting to investigate them, for wanting to understand them better. (30:33) It’s always about what are other people doing to us? (30:36) What is the Communist Party doing to us? (30:37) Never are we doing anything that arouses suspicion, because clearly we both agree that there’s a lot of stuff going on that shouldn’t be going on. (30:51) Can you please tell me something about your living condition? (30:53) How many people live in a dorm, a room? (30:58) How many people? And do you have the valid fire prevention apparatus in the house? (31:08) I don’t know if there’s like fire stuff.I don’t know. (31:12) I just know that there’s no way what the living situation was legal. (31:19) At one point, we lived in kind of like an army bunker.(31:23) So I should say that the mountain is not a equal society. (31:29) So if you’re a 07 dancer, for example, you might live in a pretty decent dorm, a relatively newer dorm. (31:36) But if you were a musician and you weren’t on tour, they basically put you in the worst living condition.(31:42) So at one point, I was living with about 20 other guys. (31:46) And we were all lined up in a really long hallway. (31:48) So it wasn’t really a bedroom because there was no door.(31:53) There was one big door and then there was a long, long hallway with bunk beds on each side. (31:57) Yeah, about 20 people lived in that area. (32:01) 20 people? (32:02) 20 people.(32:03) Yeah. (32:05) So it seemed like the army to me, seemed like the military to me. (32:12) Do you have your own bed or you have to share beds with someone else? (32:18) Yeah, we had to share beds.(32:19) And if you wanted to create your own personal private space, that was kind of frowned upon. (32:25) So if I wanted to put up curtains to block what people could see, they would sometimes ask you to take that down. (32:31) Not always, but they would sometimes ask you to remove that and they would do checks.(32:36) They would do bed inspections, which is another very militaristic thing. (32:42) How old are you? How old were you there? (32:45) I was 13, 14. (32:48) 13, 14? (32:49) So this is before I toured, yeah.(32:51) Yeah. (32:54) As a U.S. citizen, you do not have your own ID certificate. (33:02) Your ID certificate has to hand over to the authority.(33:07) Well, actually, that’s a very interesting thing. (33:09) So I’m a big fan of sports. (33:12) And if you watch a lot of videos of athletes when they arrive at a camp for training, (33:19) you’ll see them hand over their documents, probably because someone has to manage them.(33:24) Is it not the same situation? (33:26) They’re handing over their documents to be managed, to be safeguarded. (33:30) Is that not what’s happening? (33:35) I don’t know. I just want to know the exact situation you experienced.(33:41) Right. Well, yeah. (33:43) We handed over our stuff pretty much whenever we got back.(33:48) We handed our stuff. (33:50) And then when we were allowed to go on our two-week break, which is funny because every year we get two weeks. (33:56) Which reminds you of what? (33:58) Of a worker, an employee of a company who gets two weeks off a year.(34:03) Or students. (34:04) Yes. (34:05) So it’s funny.We’re sometimes students, sometimes employees of a company. (34:12) Sometimes billionaire. (34:14) Exactly.Exactly. (34:15) I’m glad we’re on the same page here. (34:21) There was one point where we were living in a two-person bedroom.(34:25) I lived in New York and my room was tiny, but this room was unimaginably small for two people. (34:33) The door couldn’t even open all the way. That’s how small the room was.(34:37) And there are many of these rooms all lined up. (34:43) And I don’t know how we survived that and how people didn’t find that to be extremely problematic. (34:52) Who owned that building? (34:56) I don’t know.I imagine it’s not Li himself. It’s probably a person, a random practitioner. (35:04) Because Li wants to stay out of direct responsibility.(35:13) So can you give me the address of that building? Do you remember? (35:20) No, I don’t have an address. It’s all part of 140 Galley Hill Road. (35:25) Everything is part of 140 Galley Hill Road.I’m sure you know that. (35:30) The address of Shenyuan, right? (35:32) Yeah, the address. It’s all part of the same place.(35:36) In the compound, right? (35:38) Yes, in the compound. (35:42) The mountain has had a lot of issues with the local residents. I’m sure you know that.(35:46) They might say that’s the local residents being infiltrated by the CCP. (35:51) But I say, we have thousands of Chinese people flocking to one area. (35:56) They block themselves off and they say they’re being persecuted.(35:59) But again, if you look at cults, a lot of cults have this. (36:05) They have their own compound and it’s not free access to it. (36:08) If you ask AI, if you ask ChatGPT what they think, they’re going to say it’s a problem.(36:16) They’re going to say that it’s human trafficking. (36:18) Believe me, I’ve done all my asking of AI. (36:21) Is AI infiltrated by CCP too? Who knows? (36:27) Everybody or thing against them or question them are influenced by CCP, obviously.(36:34) It sounds like just a communist party. (36:36) It sounds like a communist party if you don’t say the subject. (36:40) They do the same thing.(36:43) My dad always says the people who are doing this, all they know is that. (36:48) Because they came from that environment. (36:49) Have you heard of any suspicious death cases? (36:55) Guests? Like people visiting? (36:56) Death.Have you heard of any suspicious death cases? (37:02) I’ve heard people falling to their deaths from construction. (37:07) I heard before my time, there was a boy who left. (37:13) I don’t know.I didn’t know him personally. (37:16) I heard he left and he committed suicide. (37:19) Then that was said, like Lee said in the big meeting, which reminds me of North Korea.(37:27) In the big meeting, he said that if you leave, you may have the same fate as that boy. (37:32) Isn’t that extremely… (37:36) I cannot believe these kids listen to that and actually take him seriously. (37:41) That’s unbelievable.(37:45) That boy’s name is Edward Jung. (37:48) Edward Jung, he committed suicide in 2012. (37:53) His death was used against these children.(37:58) Unbelievable. (37:59) But I did hear of a case of a woman. (38:05) I knew her personally.We toured together. (38:07) She was married to a fellow musician. (38:10) She got sick.She had, I think, MS. (38:13) She had the back issue. Her spinal cord was, I guess, compromised. (38:19) She got sick during lockdown.(38:22) She had no access to care because she thought she could just… (38:27) She died. (38:30) Really? What is her name? (38:33) Stephanie. (38:34) Stephanie what? (38:36) Stephanie Chen.(38:40) Is she a US citizen? (38:43) No. (38:44) As far as I know, she was from China. (38:48) She came here.She got married to her old cello teacher. (38:54) So they have quite an age gap. (38:56) But they are both from China.(38:58) I don’t know if the man, the husband, who also passed away. (39:02) I don’t know if he has status. (39:04) The entire family passed away.(39:06) The older brother of the husband was also a very important figure in the orchestra. (39:13) Last name Deng. (39:14) Fair.(39:20) Have you heard any case of arranged marriage, forced marriage? (39:29) It’s the same thing as when they say you’re free to leave. (39:34) Are you really free to leave? (39:35) So they might suggest you marry someone. (39:37) You can say, I don’t want to.(39:38) But everyone will be like, oh, I need to be a good practitioner. (39:42) I need to not care about my own, whether it’s my attachment or my own wishes. (39:48) I’m just going to marry, especially the girls.(39:51) That’s what happens to a lot of them, I suspect. (39:54) But the person who does a lot of that matchmaking is Li’s wife. (40:00) So that’s what I’ve heard.(40:02) Again, these are not personal anecdotes. (40:04) So whatever I say, you can just take it with a grain of salt, so to speak. (40:07) You don’t have to take it seriously.(40:08) But yeah, if you have been at the mountain, you have heard of these things. (40:14) There are cases of weird deaths. (40:16) There are cases of arranged or strongly encouraged marriages.(40:22) There are lots of people on student visas who are doing this kind of commercial touring. (40:29) And oh, I don’t know. (40:31) It’s all very strange.(40:33) I left that environment many years ago, but I still find it such a fascinating thing. (40:38) I saw the videos on Twitter, on X, of the cafeteria of Li, all the weird architecture. (40:48) It’s incredible that more people don’t know about this.(40:53) Yes. (40:54) To all the people who are campaigning against the New York Times, (40:58) campaigning against what you are doing, what Xiaoming, what you guys are doing, (41:03) it’s as simple as if you are practitioners and there’s nothing wrong with what you’re doing, (41:08) then you can just… (41:09) I don’t understand. Tell me again in Chinese.(41:12) If you are a Falun Gong practitioner, (41:16) if there is nothing suspicious or illegal about what you are doing, (41:23) then why are you so… (41:26) You say, the CCP, the CCP, the CCP. (41:28) Well, it doesn’t matter. (41:29) If what you are doing is fine, then it makes everybody look silly.(41:33) But if you are nervous, (41:34) if you are nervous, (41:35) then it’s even more suspicious. (41:39) Yes. (41:41) So we’ll see.(41:43) You seem to think that everything will be decided soon. (41:48) I actually have a question for you. (41:50) I heard that Bill Nguyen, the former Epoch Times CFO, (41:54) I heard he was released.(41:55) Do you know about his situation right now? (41:57) No, he is not released. (41:59) We cannot bail out. (42:02) He was released on bail.(42:06) He was released on bail. (42:09) Once he is released on bail, can he still be charged? (42:13) Yes. (42:14) He is still facing those charges from SDNY, (42:19) South District New York Court.(42:24) Right. (42:24) I should say it’s SDNY-CCP. (42:28) SDNY-CCP.(42:29) You have to add CCP to everything. (42:31) What do you mean? (42:32) I don’t understand. (42:33) SDNY-CCP, what does it mean? (42:34) That means CCP also infiltrated the New York Court.(42:38) Infiltrated everything. (42:42) Maybe. (42:43) You can tell this story to Damien Williams.(42:46) Do you know Damien Williams? (42:48) It sounds familiar. (42:50) Is he the guy that appears at the Fog Conference? (42:53) Damien Williams is the prosecutor of the SDNY office. (42:58) I see.(42:59) That’s funny. (43:00) He charged Guo Wengui, Miles Guo. (43:05) And I think Li Hongzhi will be the next one.(43:08) You know. (43:10) Our Chinese doesn’t do something good in the United States. (43:15) Right.(43:24) How about your mom’s opinion on me? (43:27) We haven’t talked about it at all. (43:29) So. (43:31) My mom.(43:33) She’s very similar to Ashley Chung’s mom. (43:38) Yeah. (43:40) I listened to Ashley’s audio clip of her mom.(43:47) Persuading her to not speak with you. (43:51) Persuading her to just stay out of it. (43:55) My mom goes a little bit further.(43:56) Her personality is very stubborn and superstitious. (44:03) So she really believes. (44:04) If I don’t stand on the right side, something bad will happen.(44:08) She strongly believes that. (44:10) For her, me leaving was already a huge thing. (44:15) But she was able to justify that.(44:17) Justify, justify. (44:18) She convinced herself that it was all Li’s plan for me. (44:23) Even though I. (44:25) For a long time, I told her I didn’t want to be there.(44:28) And yet, you know, she’ll apply the psychological pressure on me. (44:31) And she’ll make me so frustrated. (44:33) And I just want her to shut up, so to speak.(44:36) Right. Obviously, I don’t want to say that to her. (44:39) But that’s the effect.(44:40) I want her to not talk about stuff. (44:42) And so I will say, like, you know, I’m still a practitioner. (44:46) I’m not.I’m not a practitioner. (44:48) But in order to appease her and get her to not speak about this. (44:51) I’ll tell her that I am just to maintain the peace.(44:54) And so she’ll use these words against me. (44:57) She’ll say, look, you said you were a practitioner or you said you want to go back. (45:01) Really, like, did I did I actually say that? (45:05) She doesn’t.(45:07) Do you know how silence her? (45:10) How to silence your mother? (45:14) Restraining. (45:15) Restraining order. (45:16) Yes.How to restrain your mother’s manipulation on you. (45:20) Do you consider some method to do so? (45:24) The thing is, you know, I can block her contact method. (45:27) I don’t live at home.I can block her contact method. (45:30) But this isn’t something that, you know, I haven’t heard anyone talk about is what is the effect of FLG on families? (45:38) So, you know, from personal experience, like, unfortunately, you you’ve had to divorce. (45:43) Right.And that’s all because of you can say that you left the practice. (45:49) Right. And so for my my family, my dad’s not a practitioner.(45:53) He completely understands me. He’s actually very open minded. (45:57) He says, you know, if you want to go back to the mountain, as long as you you can make a living like that’s that’s all I care about.(46:03) And I’m very grateful that he is able to be reasonable with my mom. (46:08) But, you know, if I completely cut my mom off, what is going to happen to him? (46:12) How is he going to be able to deal with that psychological pressure? (46:15) All of it will be placed on him and she will blame him for all these things. (46:21) And you cannot imagine what that is like.(46:24) Maybe you can learn, you can actually tell what is one recorder for you and one recorder for your father. (46:32) Record everything your mother said and put it online. (46:36) Right.She will be silent. (46:39) And that’s the thing is like. (46:42) That’s what I want to do.(46:45) And even by speaking to you, I want I want the message to be clear to her that I don’t want anything to do with her lifestyle and how she views the world. (46:54) Because my mom’s not a practitioner because she believes in the moral ethics. (47:00) She’s a practitioner because she thinks that her life was saved because I wanted to practice.(47:06) I wanted to practice, but how old was I when when she started back three? (47:09) So she’s saying that I brought her into Falun Gong, did I? (47:14) I was three years old. (47:17) I don’t think your mother is a practitioner. (47:21) I think myself as a practitioner, I think your mother is a manipulator to her own little son, to eat her own son.(47:33) Yeah, to not to nourish her own very, very father. (47:41) So, you know, he is a children eater. (47:44) I call your mother a children eater.(47:46) What she needs is a recorder. (47:50) What you need is a recorder to record everything she said and put it online. (47:55) It’s unbelievable.Yeah. (47:55) Before that, please check your local local law. (48:00) Right.It’s complicated. Yeah, yeah. (48:03) But I mean, just have you heard of any practitioners say that if you leave, I’ll leave, too? (48:09) Have you heard that? No.Right. (48:12) Heard what? (48:13) So currently the situation for me is like my mom, she says, if you decide to leave the practice, I’m going to decide to leave the practice, too. (48:23) So she’s I don’t understand her approach to cultivation at all.(48:30) I don’t know how she’s benefiting from cultivation. (48:33) But what I do know is that she believes that her responsibility is to make sure I’m a cultivator. (48:38) I’m a practitioner.(48:40) Unfortunately, I’m a God fearing man. (48:42) I just don’t believe in Lee. (48:43) I don’t believe Lee is the creator.(48:45) I do believe there is a creator. (48:47) I don’t believe it’s Lee. (48:50) You need to think about it.(48:55) Your mom is not that hard to deal with. (48:59) No, it’s not that she’s hard to deal with. (49:02) If I deal with her, what about my family? (49:05) What do I do? (49:06) What about my dad? Right? (49:08) I’ve heard it all.(49:10) The reason you still have this idea is because you’re still putting your mom under her current control of you. (49:18) If your dad has a recorder, you have a recorder, too. (49:21) Whatever he says, whenever he says, whenever he plays, he’ll be silent.(49:23) But what good does it do to my dad? (49:27) He’s not being used like this for the past 20 years. (49:33) But what if he’s forced to divorce and has to give up half of his assets? (49:42) Then maybe you need to blame your mom for sending you to the Human Trafficking Group when you were young. (49:50) But that’s the thing.(49:52) As someone who’s gone through everything, I don’t want… (49:57) I don’t implicate my mother. (49:58) I don’t think she did something to harm me, but the effect is harmful. (50:03) Does that make sense? (50:09) I don’t know if I say those things to you is appropriate.(50:16) You still have feelings for your son’s mother. (50:22) But what she did to you for 20 years or more proves that she didn’t do that to you. (50:31) But in fact, you know, a lot of parents, especially mothers, (50:40) if they have a son or a daughter, it’s the same thing.(50:49) I’m not asking if there are other people like that. (50:51) I’m just saying that what she did to you wasn’t love. (50:54) Of course, of course.(51:10) I just know that she’s a very extreme woman. (51:13) And you pair that up with a very extreme ideology. (51:17) It’s a very explosive personality.(51:21) So it’s tough. (51:32) When did you know me? (51:39) I’m also friends with people who knew you, who also were mentioned in the article. (51:46) What article? (51:48) New York Times article, sorry.(51:51) In that piece. (51:54) I know everybody in the piece because I grew up with them, especially the musicians. (52:00) I grew up with them.(52:03) And I heard from them about you. (52:05) I still do. (52:07) I listen to your podcast a lot right before I go to bed.(52:11) Some people think it’s very… (52:13) Very exciting. (52:15) But I feel very comfortable listening to it. (52:17) It’s relaxing, you know? (52:43) They claim to be non-violent.(52:48) They claim to do junchai. (52:51) Obviously, with last time when they doxed you and they had Lana Han, when they kind of figured out your location and things like that. (52:59) It’s very scary.(53:00) They don’t play fair. (53:03) They’re very dark. (53:06) Best of luck to you too.(53:08) I just really hope that justice is served. (53:18) Can you consider one day I can put our conversation on my channel? (53:25) You can put it today. (53:27) You can do it today.(53:29) Really? (53:30) Yeah, I don’t mind. (53:31) What I do mind is for the sake of my mom, for the sake of being a son still, you know? (53:40) Just keeping my complete identity hidden. (53:45) Obviously, if people know me, they know it’s me.(53:49) I don’t know if you want to do this. (53:50) I kind of think of my situation a bit like Ashley. (53:56) I have a little bit more stakes personally.(53:59) Not because of myself, obviously, but because of my family. (54:04) So it’s complicated. (54:04) But to be honest, I went to college and I went to music school.(54:13) I would always avoid telling people about my past because it’s not a very proud thing that happened to me. (54:24) It’s glorious. (54:26) I’m back in time.(54:29) Yes. (54:30) Have you considered the reason why I am not afraid of mentioning my past? (54:37) My past is more related to Falun Gong than you do, right? (54:41) Right. (54:43) Why am I not afraid of that? (54:48) That’s a good question.(54:49) I think for you, not to say this in a demeaning way, but you have lost time. (55:00) You’ve lost resources, right? (55:04) So they say you don’t have as much to lose. (55:07) I’m not saying that I have more to lose than you.(55:10) But somehow you are in a position where this is the logical conclusion to speak out to get to the bottom of everything. (55:21) For me, I still want to live a normal life, which is why I’m not the face of the New York Times article. (55:28) I’m just one person that they interviewed, right? (55:32) Let me tell you my answer.(55:35) It is not, as you said, I have nothing to lose. (55:38) Everyone has something to lose. (55:41) Maybe you think my life is very simple or very limited on the material side, but I still have a lot of things to lose from my perspective.(55:53) I think the reason why I am not afraid of exposing my past is that I have disclosed precious gifts from my past, and I share those gifts freely to my audience. (56:10) You have a similar gift too, but you didn’t dig into that gift to open it. (56:17) You are afraid of that.(56:18) You turn your face against that. (56:20) You think that is a liability. (56:24) That is not an asset, but I’m telling you that is a kind of asset.(56:28) You can open the gift. (56:30) It is a very precious gift because not so many people experience the same thing. (56:35) There is a very precious gift in that experience.(56:42) Dig into that experience. (56:43) Find the gift and share this gift freely to others. (56:47) I understand what you’re saying, but it’s a bit shameful.(56:53) If you can imagine the psychology, the psyche of someone who was previously in a cult, they exit the cult. (57:01) Sometimes they share their story, and they often become very well-known. (57:07) If they are interviewed and their story is told online, lots of people flock to it.(57:14) I don’t have that desire to be recognized, to be associated with the practice. (57:20) I just want to be honest. (57:25) I want to see everything come to an end so that I can have peace at home.(57:31) I don’t want to push you to do anything. (57:34) I just want to share my thoughts with you. (57:38) You said you just want to lead a normal life.(57:41) No, it is not possible. (57:44) Your current life is not a normal life. (57:47) It does not depend on you.(57:48) It depends on your experience, but you cannot change your experience. (57:52) When you say shame, you just think about me. (57:59) Why don’t I feel any shame? (58:03) The very important reason is that you can find very precious things from your past experience.(58:14) Those things are very important to you. (58:16) You said you want everything to come to an end. (58:19) But I see everything as a very precious beginning.(58:26) To you, it is a very precious beginning. (58:28) It is not an end. It is a beginning.(58:30) It is the beginning of the true journey. (58:34) Journey inside to see what happened before. (58:39) What really happened in the past? (58:41) What did you really get? (58:42) The reason why you feel ashamed is that you evaluate everything on 得与失.(58:49) What you get, what you lose. (58:51) You evaluate everything on this level. (58:55) No, I don’t evaluate things on this level.(58:57) I evaluate things on how does my life blossom or nourish. (59:05) How does my life grow? (59:06) I think you are also growing. (59:08) When you really grow, when you really share this growth, you won’t feel ashamed.(59:14) And people will thank you, not look down at you. (59:17) People will thank you, just like people thank me. (59:21) It’s a bit, you know, some of my friends don’t understand.(59:26) I think from our conversation, you can tell. (59:29) I make a lot of jokes about the practice and about SY. (59:33) To me, it’s just a drinking story.(59:36) If I have close friends, I won’t tell them, hey, this happened to me in the past. (59:42) And this is why when I say I went to boarding school in New York, that’s what I meant. (59:47) No, I don’t really care to explain to them who I am because of my past.(59:53) But I do think it’s a little bit funny and interesting that this happened to me. (59:57) That’s all. (59:59) That’s why I’m not in a position like you where I’m speaking out against it.(1:00:02) Because I am not interested in, perhaps maybe this is too early for me to say. (1:00:09) And I’m still, like you say, I’m still growing and maturing. (1:00:13) But to me, it is very simple.(1:00:17) Like, let’s just imagine for a second what Lee did. (1:00:23) So Lee was, you know, uneducated. (1:00:27) Some people say that he was involved with the government in a very local setting.(1:00:32) Do you know about this? (1:00:33) He was like a local, like a… (1:00:38) I saw some pictures of him wearing a uniform. (1:00:43) So he has some involvement with the government. (1:00:45) But he was not a very successful person by any means.(1:00:49) And all of a sudden, he comes out and he becomes a figure, a public figure, (1:00:53) preaching about morality and preaching about how to basically become a god of your own. (1:01:01) So that’s his psychology. (1:01:04) And I don’t know what Lee is thinking when the persecution started.(1:01:10) Like, coincidentally, he left China, right, two years before the persecution started. (1:01:14) Don’t know if that was planned. (1:01:15) Don’t know if that was accident.(1:01:16) He’s here. (1:01:17) Persecution is happening. (1:01:18) It’s been happening for 25 years.(1:01:21) And so many people have basically contributed their entire lives, their families to this thing. (1:01:27) He created several companies, you know, grossing, what, hundreds of millions in revenue. (1:01:34) And that’s Lee.(1:01:35) And we know who he is now. (1:01:37) I mean, when I went to the mountain, that’s when I really had to understand who Lee was. (1:01:41) Not someone to fear.(1:01:43) I went on tour with Lee. (1:01:44) One time I was outside during Fajionian. (1:01:48) Because I hate Fajionian.(1:01:49) So boring. (1:01:51) But we were Fajionian. (1:01:52) And I would escape, basically, the fear.(1:01:57) And one time I ran into Lee outside. (1:01:59) And Lee was like, (1:02:02) Something like that. (1:02:03) And I just kind of laughed, you know.(1:02:05) At that point, I had no, I did not see him as a divine, you know, creator figure. (1:02:11) He was just a normal man. (1:02:12) And I cannot imagine how absolutely normal my life would be without him.(1:02:20) You know? (1:02:21) Like, sure, you say it’s very treasurable, very special, what’s happened to me. (1:02:28) To me, again, that’s not my personality. (1:02:32) Does that make sense? (1:02:33) Yes.(1:02:34) I understand. (1:02:35) So some of my friends, you know, they want to create a story. (1:02:40) A piece of literature based on their experience.(1:02:42) I don’t. (1:02:43) I just want to get married, have a family, you know. (1:02:48) Some of my friends from the mountain are my lifelong friends.(1:02:51) Because we went through the same thing. (1:02:53) And I want to see everyone do well. (1:02:55) And I want to see my mom, (1:03:00) I want to see that happen.(1:03:01) And, you know, has my mom understood how to be a better person? (1:03:09) Yes. (1:03:09) Has she become a better person? (1:03:11) No. (1:03:11) Does that make sense? (1:03:13) She understands, you know.(1:03:14) Last sentence. (1:03:15) I don’t understand the last sentence. (1:03:18) She has understood how to become a better person.(1:03:21) How to be a better person. (1:03:23) But she really hasn’t become a better person. (1:03:39) I want to ask you.(1:03:41) I want to ask you. (1:03:42) You came from Mainland China. (1:03:51) How come you weren’t like them? (1:03:53) You came here.(1:03:53) How come you didn’t become more devout, more fervent? (1:04:11) Like you’re saying, the gains and losses, right? (1:04:15) The assets and liabilities. (1:04:17) I don’t know. (1:04:18) I don’t understand their English.(1:04:19) You’re saying it’s the same thing as for my situation. (1:04:23) I think of it as something to gain, something to lose. (1:04:26) And you’re saying these other practitioners are the same way.(1:04:31) Yes. (1:04:32) I think most of them are also afraid. (1:04:35) They’re afraid that if they leave this thing, (1:04:39) what will happen next? (1:04:40) But it’s all just to scare you.(1:04:42) Believe me. (1:04:43) Like when I was at the mountain too. (1:04:45) Do you know about the contract? (1:04:47) That was… (1:04:48) I still talk about the contract because I was there for the contract.(1:04:56) It was ridiculous. (1:04:59) It’s unbelievable. (1:05:00) And we promised to never access these ordinary things.(1:05:07) I don’t play games. (1:05:12) But all these things. (1:05:15) We thought if we fell into this trap one time, it was over.(1:05:23) Isn’t that hilarious? (1:05:26) It’s like… (1:05:27) Very scary. (1:05:29) Dangerous. (1:05:30) Yes, really.(1:05:31) When I think about it, it’s really incredible. (1:05:35) It was really scary at the time. (1:05:37) How do I put it? (1:05:46) It’s just about their lives.(1:05:50) Their lives. (1:05:51) Their life-and-death choices. (1:06:02) Yes.(1:06:10) So, is there anything you want to tell me? (1:06:27) Yes. (1:06:31) 26 years old. (1:06:37) He has his own life now.(1:06:37) What is his stance? (1:06:40) He walked along the whole journey with me. (1:06:43) He gave me a lot of comfort and support. (1:06:48) And I exchanged my thoughts with him.(1:06:52) He is now landing a job in Dallas, Texas. (1:06:56) In a very good company. (1:06:59) and he lived his own life and he told me that he will announce he’s leaving from (1:07:08) Falun Gong maybe in next week to his mother.Do we have any, oh I see, but he (1:07:14) has the same, he’s in the same situation as me, right? To his mother’s (1:07:18) knowledge, he’s still involved, correct? Yes. That’s the same situation as me and (1:07:23) why hasn’t he told her he’s leaving yet? Why hasn’t he told what? Told his mom. (1:07:30) Because he is not financially independent.I see, but soon he will be. (1:07:36) He is now, he is now. Right, so that’s why he’s telling her now.Yes. Well for me, I (1:07:42) waited until I was moved out as well, also financially independent, to then tell (1:07:47) my mom, but guess what? My mom doesn’t believe me. (1:07:49) She believes that, right? You know, so it’s a little bit tricky.Can I ask, does (1:08:00) he respect like his mom? What does he think of his, her still being affiliated, (1:08:07) what does he think? On the Falun Gong issue, he doesn’t share any thought (1:08:17) with his mom. Does she make him, yes, does she make him Xue Fa? She tried to persuade him to (1:08:29) regularly Xue Fa, but finally he is determined to, determined to tell his (1:08:39) mother, I’m out, I’m quit. Right, okay, and that’s the thing.I would say the vast (1:08:45) majority of young children, either they are ingenuine or they are completely (1:08:51) disassociated. Yes. There’s, there’s actually quite a, you know, only a select (1:08:57) number of people who are still in that middle, where they’re both still (1:09:01) believing, but also not acting out.So that’s, that’s the situation, right? And I (1:09:07) think there is, there is a third way, is to fight back, you know, fight back. They (1:09:14) are doing the wrong thing. They hurt a lot of people, especially they hurt their (1:09:19) own children.Sure. In the whole scenario, those parents, those parents in Falun Gong (1:09:26) is the major role to hurt their own children. Yeah, exactly.So we need to fight (1:09:32) back. We are not just leave them alone, no, we fight back. Right.I agree that (1:09:42) there is value in doing that. It’s a very ironic, their, their claim is they’re (1:09:51) saving people, but they themselves need to be saved. Yes.It’s very, it’s kind of (1:09:58) like something out of a movie, the plot of a movie. Someone should make a movie, (1:10:03) it’d be a blockbuster, a story of children who believe they are saving the (1:10:09) world, but they’re actually being abused. Yes.It’s unbelievable. In fact, there is (1:10:17) a documentary filmmaker is filming a movie. Do you want to talk with him? (1:10:24) Sure.I think I, I’ve heard of him, but I need his contact information. (1:10:30) Yes. I will give you the contact information.Yeah. Okay. That sounds good to me.(1:10:38) Okay. So let’s, let’s call it a conversation. Yes.I hope I can contact in the future, (1:10:53) we can exchange our thoughts, right? I am definitely open for that dialogue. (1:11:03) I think that for now, I want to keep, you know, this, this picture, this name, whatever, (1:11:09) I can be somewhat anonymous. If that’s okay with you, if you find that there’s (1:11:15) no use publicizing this recording, if I’m not public, then it’s up to you.But (1:11:26) maybe you can say like, like a musician, former musician, I don’t know, it’s up to you. (1:11:31) I just want for the sake of my, actually my family, it’s always been my family, not myself. (1:11:37) I don’t really care if that’s okay with you.Thank you. And I will, I will stop recording (1:11:48) and I will ask some other questions. Sure.Okay. Sure. Sure.
(0:03) 那么，我先介绍一下自己。(0:07) 我从22岁，也就是1993年开始练习法轮功。(0:13) 我在练习法轮功的过程中树立了基本的道德准则。
（0:23）我想想，从1999年到2005年，我练习法轮功大约有六年时间，（0:35）中国共产党开始镇压法轮功。（0:40）我发现自己站在了抵抗他们暴力镇压的第一线。（0:49）于是，我帮助西方记者采访了那些受中共迫害的人。
(0:57) 我找到了一种加密通信工具，一种加密通信工具，(1:04)一种加密通信工具，用于在记者和我们之间，(1:14)以及在中国境内外的同修之间建立通信渠道。(1:21) 因此，从2000年到2002年，我一直是中国的头号通缉犯。(1:30) 最后，2002年8月，我和我的妻子、我的前妻一起被捕。
(1:38) 我在中国的监狱里度过了近10年的时间。(1:44) 2013年，我去了美国，直到现在。(1:50) 出国后，我发现法轮功的修炼真的很糟糕。
（1:59）他们充满了控制和威胁，以及整个练习中的操纵。（2:12）自2017年以来，我听说神韵内部存在黑暗。2021年1月，两位神韵舞者，前舞者孙在、程庆林、杰夫·孙和阿什利·程（2:35）来找我，向我讲述了他们的故事。
（2:40）我决定揭露所有这些事情，直到现在。（2:45）我们聚在一起。这就是我的故事。
你呢？ (2:51) 是的，谢谢邀请我。 (2:54) 首先，我想说，你在中国的监狱里呆了10年，这真是不可思议。 (3:01) 至少可以说，美国监狱系统显然不好玩。
(3:07) 但我无法想象在中国被监禁是什么感觉，那是一种什么样的处境。(3:13) 另外，我觉得很有意思的是，你之前是中国头号通缉犯，现在又成了法轮功头号通缉犯。(3:23) 所以你总是名列通缉名单，这真的很有意思。
(3:28) 所以，我并不是生来就从事这一行。(3:34) 我现在20多岁，但我的妈妈继承了这一行。(3:40) 只有我妈妈，没有我爸爸。
(3:42) 她大约在2003年学琴。(3:45) 那时我大概两岁。(3:50) 她是怎么知道这件事的。
(3:51) 我之所以谈论她而不是我自己，是因为她至今仍在我和FLG的关系中扮演着非常重要的角色。(4:00) 说实话，我管它叫SY。(4:05) 你管它叫什么？(4:06) 我管它叫SY。
(4:08) 神韵，我管它叫SY。(4:09) XY，对吗？(4:11) 不，SSY。(4:14) SY，好吧。
(4:16) 我一般都简称它为“短版”。(4:20) 这样说起来更简单。(4:23) 不过，我妈妈对我的影响显然非常大。
(4:27) 我想，她是通过认识的一位当地从业者进入这一行业的。 (4:32) 她以前做的是WMA。 (4:35) 你知道那是什么吗？ (4:37) 不好意思？ (4:37) 是WMA。
(4:39) 某种程度上，它有点像传销。 (4:43) 它的名声确实不好。 (4:45) 但它基本上就像你卖了一个，我不知道你管它叫程序不，但你卖给其他人，他们再卖给其他人。
（4:52）所以这是一个很大的传销骗局。（4:58）这是一个很大的传销骗局，对吧。（4:59）但我妈妈以前就参与过这个。
（5:02）所以你可以想象她是个什么样的人。(5:04) 但她通过这个认识了一个人，那人向她介绍了这种修行。 (5:11) 当时，她父亲病了。
(5:14) 所以这甚至不是为了她自己的利益。 (5:15) 是为了我的祖父，让他从修行中获得某种祝福和奇迹，好起来。 (5:23) 但他没有好起来。
(5:23) 他去世了。(5:25) 她开始在美国练习。(5:30) 我爷爷住在中国。
(5:31) 所以你母亲在美国开始练习法轮功。(5:36) 是的，我应该说。(5:37) 我们家在美国已经30多年了。
(5:40) 我们来这里，或者说是我父亲来这里时还是研究生。 (5:45) 你能说慢一点吗，我听不清你的话。 (5:50) 好的。
(5:51) 是的。 (5:51) 好的。 (5:51) 对不起。
(5:52) 是的。(5:52) 我们在美国已经生活了三十多年。(5:58) 我们不是以难民的身份来的，而是以研究生家庭的身份来的。
(6:05) 所以，在她开始执业后，我们经历了一个漫长的过程。(6:13) 从那时起已经过去了大约20年。(6:15) 她变化很大。
(6:17) 发生了几件大事。(6:20) 当我十几岁的时候，就已经开始拉小提琴了，但后来越来越认真。(6:33) 我们有一个目标。
(6:35) 我说“我们”，是因为我妈妈认为是我自己定下了这个目标。 (6:39) 但我们一直在练习，并上小提琴课，为的是登上高山。 (6:46) 这就是最终目标。
(6:49) 我们想参加巡演之类的活动。 (6:53) 于是我们参加了试镜。 (6:55) 我成功了。
(6:56) 然后我在那里工作了五年。 (6:58) 五年后，我决定我受够了。 (7:03) 我周围很多人也离开了，他们对整个公司及其动机持怀疑态度。
(7:11) 所以对我来说，这总是和钱有关。(7:16) 钱的问题对我来说很重要，因为我们是学生。(7:20) 我们没有工资，这可以理解。
(7:23) 学生不需要工资。(7:24) 但奇怪的是，我们中有95%是学生，而且工作时间很长，演出很多。（7:32）我记得我每天有时要在公交车上坐15到17个小时。
（7:37）其他人也谈到了这一点。（7:40）对我来说，我从未因此受到身体上的伤害。（7:46）但这绝对是一个心理上的挑战。
(7:49) 基本上，这是一种折磨，因为我们除了睡觉和看书之外什么都不能做。(7:56) 一点都不好玩。(7:59) 你自己拿着护照或身份证吗？(8:05) 是的，我只去过两次。
(8:10) 实际上，我应该说，不，我不认为我拿着自己的护照。 (8:15) 我没有身份证。 (8:16) 不要想什么？ (8:17) 我没有自己的护照。
(8:21) 它被交给了当局，交给了管弦乐队经理。(8:29) 你可以自由进出营地吗？ (8:35) 不可以。 (8:38) 有几件事。
(8:39) 有些人已经习惯了那里的环境。 (8:43) 他们不想离开。 (8:45) 其他人每周离开一次就足够了。
（8:51）那个地方就是山。（8:52）每周去一次当地的沃尔玛或类似的地方。（8:58）这很像监狱。
（9:02）你被困在那里。（9:04）当你离开时，有时间限制。（9:09）然后你就没有自由了。
(9:13) 我记得我和我的朋友们会偷偷藏有自己的设备。(9:19) 当我们每周离开山区旅行时，我们可以自由使用Wi-Fi。(9:29) 至于我离开后发生的事情，我决定去米德尔敦试一试。
(9:40) 原因是我的家人搬到了一个学区竞争非常激烈的地区。(9:47) 我们希望确保我按时毕业。(9:51) 对我来说，这是件大事。
(9:52) 我希望按时毕业。(9:53) 显然，按时毕业意味着高中经历意味着我在学业上非常落后。(10:09) 你可以想象。
（10:10）特别是课程方面。（10:13）他们只做了最低限度的课程。（10:14）他们有很多我认为不必要的课程，比如中文、中国历史，完全是浪费时间，数学和科学课都很少。
(10:28) 我落后很多。(10:30) 后来我去了米德尔敦，想按时毕业，结果成功了。(10:33) 然后我上了大学，又读了研究生。
(10:37) 现在我正身处风暴之中。(10:42) 这就是我的故事。(10:43) 什么风暴？(10:45) SY PR运动对《纽约时报》和《纽约时报》以及反对SY的人的反击。
（10:57）就是这整件事。（11:04）你在申远的时候被称为学生，对吗？（11:09）是的，我是一名学生。（11:11）告诉我，作为一名学生，你是否参加过申远的商业演出？（11:20）你每天的时间是怎么安排的？（11:25）是的。
(11:26) 你参加过商业演出吗？ (11:30) 我有巡演和演出吗？ (11:34) 有。 (11:34) 是的，我有。 (11:35) 我做了两次巡演。
(11:37) 与许多同龄人相比，我做得很少，因为我最终离开了。 (11:41) 在我待过的头三年里，我没有巡演。 (11:43) 我参加了他们所谓的预备音乐班。
(11:48) 那更像是一般的中学教育，我们在音乐课上学习乐器，但因为不巡演，我们全年都要上常规课程。(12:00) 最后两年，我参加了巡演，演出了大约90场和110场。（12:05）大约200场演出，我得到了多少钱？（12:10）大概总共2000美元。
(12:18) 2000美元演了多少场？200场？ (12:22) 200场。 (12:23) 200场，你得到2000美元。 (12:26) 问题是，我当时还是个学生，所以他们说，好吧，第一年你只是个菜鸟。
（12:35）他们觉得没必要为此付钱。（12:38）第二年，作为补贴，我拿到了300美元。（12:44）至于我是否真的收到了这笔钱，以及我是否还能查看这些记录，我已经无法访问那个银行账户了，所以老实说，我也不知道。
(12:51) 即使你只考虑我演出了200场，拯救了多少生命。(13:00) 200场演出，巡演了多少小时？(13:04) 如果你把这些时间都算作工作时间，我们还要长途跋涉，排练，做各种声音测试。(13:14) 别忘了，演出前我们还要布置舞台和准备道具。
(13:22) 之后，我们还要进行行业术语所说的“罢工”。(13:28) 前几天我和某人谈论过这个问题。(13:30) 对于一名交响乐团男乐手来说，每天要罢工和做其他事情的时间平均约为17、18个小时。
（13:41）每天18小时。（13:43）是的，每天18小时。（13:45）太荒谬了。
（13:47）我觉得每天工作18小时，我们都可以称你为学生了。（13:54）我觉得我们可以称你为工人。（13:56）是的，当然。
工作那么长时间是闻所未闻的，对吗？（14:01）但让我们来谈谈他们如何证明这是合理的。（14:04）他们会说，好吧，你是个学生，他们可能会说这是自愿的。（14:12）你可以选择这样做，没有人强迫你。
(14:15) 但是，如果你仔细想想，事实真的是这样吗？ (14:17) 你真的可以选择不参加罢工，或者早起确保所有电缆都接好，所有东西都插好吗？ (14:28) 你有选择吗？不，你没有。(14:31) 如果你想离开，就像我离开时那样，已经有人议论，好吧，你必须支付你在校期间的学费。(14:42) 我在那里呆了五年。
(14:44) 你的意思是说我需要支付15万美元？(14:47) 哪个学校会这样？(14:48) 你听说过世界上有学校让你在入学后支付学费吗？ (14:55) 是的，是的。 (14:56) 在你入学后，你获得了奖学金。 (15:00) 所以这笔钱，是的，基本上是你的。
(15:08) 当你在搭建舞台时，所谓的壮台，有没有什么安全措施来保护你不受伤？ (15:20) 好吧，说实话，我认为我们做的本身并不危险。 (15:27) 但我确实想知道，所以回答你的问题，没有，没有安全措施。(15:32) 他们边做边教你，所以学得很快。
(15:39) 我想知道当地工会和剧院工作人员对这些小孩子做这些工作是怎么想的。(15:47) 不知道他们怎么想，但对他们来说一定很有趣。(15:50) 大多数公司，表演艺术公司，带着他们的大型制作和很多人来，而且都是老年人，对吗？ (15:58) 我们，平均年龄，可能不到20岁。
(16:02) 你几岁的时候开始做庄泰？ (16:06) 我第一次巡演时16岁，所以那时我15岁。(16:11) 我15岁开始，17岁离开。(16:15) 说实话，比起其他很多人，我没什么可说的。
(16:21) 但我确实认为自己非常了解运营。(16:24) 我甚至可以说，我能证明他们的观点是正确的。(16:31) 但在证明他们的观点时，你必须做出决定，对吗？(16:36) 到了某个时刻，你必须思考，要么这一切都是真的，这些孩子被用于正义、神圣的目的，要么这一切都是假的，这是非常严重的违法行为。
(16:50) 是的。(16:51) 所以没有其他事情了。(16:53) 继续这个话题，李不是创造者，就是可怕的罪犯，中国成千上万的人像你一样受到迫害，为他而死。
(17:04) 情况就是这样。(17:06) 所以这不是玩笑。(17:08) 是的，你说得对。
(17:10) 告诉我，当你还是壮泰的时候，有没有更小的男孩或女孩做这份工作？ (17:19) 我的意思是，我当时15岁。 (17:21) 可能还有14岁的，甚至13岁的。 (17:26) 13岁。
(17:28) 我所知道的最年轻的巡演者可能只有12岁。(17:34) 12岁。(17:39) 你能告诉我吗？(17:41) 好的，请继续。
(17:42) 但是后来，他们不再让这些超级小鬼参加巡演，甚至不再让超级小鬼入学，我想是因为他们真的什么也做不了。 (17:53) 他们可能还太小，不适合巡演。 (17:57) 而且他们有很多生活问题，比如生活方式问题。
(18:03) 他们是美国公民还是其他国家公民？ (18:10) 他们的签证状态是什么？ (18:14) 他们可能是持学生签证。 (18:16) 我猜他们是持F1学生签证。 (18:20) 持F1学生签证来美国。
(18:23) 是的。(18:24) 他们参加欧洲之旅，也许？ (18:28) 是的，绝对是的。 (18:30) 所以他们有F1签证，但他们参加了欧洲之旅。
(18:38) 同时，巡演也是商业性质的，对吗？ (18:41) 对，没错。 (18:42) 所以我想知道SY办公室是否根据签证状态精心安排了乐团或公司的人员。 (18:54) 我不知道是不是这样，但我可以谈谈个人经验。
(18:59) 当我巡演时，我们去了海外，我的团队中有很多人来自台湾。(19:05) 中国或香港的人不多，但台湾人很多。(19:10) 我猜他们都有学生签证。
（19:12）他们以商业为目的进行了巡演。（19:15）其他国家呢？（19:17）比如德国、欧洲、英国、新西兰和澳大利亚？（19:24）是的，我有几个来自澳大利亚的非常亲密的朋友。（19:31）他们也和我们一起巡演。
(19:33) 事实上，文章中提到的人之一是我的好朋友，他是澳大利亚人。(19:40) 你认识张如怡吗？(19:42) 张如怡，女小提琴家。(19:45) 是的，是的。
(19:46) 她不是叫凯瑟琳吗？ (19:48) 请再说一遍。 (19:51) 凯瑟琳，是的，没错。 (19:52) 张凯瑟琳，是的。
(19:54) 我认识她。(19:56) 我在那里的时候可能见过她，但我记不清是否真的和她聊过天，也不知道她是否知道我是谁。(20:03) 张凯瑟琳，张如怡。
(20:04) 她呢？ (20:08) 她的母亲是第一个来找我讲述《深悦内幕》的人。 (20:18) 但是当她发现我揭露了所有这些事情后，她转而站在另一边，指责我破坏了法律。 (20:33) 有意思。
(20:35) 如果你仔细想想，破坏法律不应该是一个概念，因为你无法破坏法律。 (20:42) 所以，如果法律是万无一失的，如果它是完美的，如果它已经完整，正如他们所说，那么我们提出的所有这些指控都是错误的。 (20:54) 这是对法律的嘲弄，它什么也做不了。
(20:59) 但如果他们害怕，那他们可能非常害怕。(21:04) 所以，这里没有中间地带。(21:07) 我想知道，她妈妈告诉你什么了？(21:14) 她的女儿，张如怡，凯瑟琳·张。
（21:17）是的，但当你和她的妈妈谈论女儿暴露了什么时，我猜是从女儿那里知道的。（21:23）她受到了非常严重的欺凌。（21:25）哦，哇。
(21:26) 刚从监狱回来。 (21:28) 他们使用“包养”。 (21:31) 你知道什么是“包养”吗？ (21:33) 我能想象。
(21:34) 几个人。 (21:37) 两个同学一直监视她的女儿。 (21:43) 她的女儿不能独立行事。
(21:48) 她必须受到监视，被护送到任何地方。 (21:54) 这很有趣。 (21:55) 在公共场合多次受到羞辱。
(22:00) 对，对。 (22:01) 还要公开搜身。 (22:06) 她的个人财产也会被公开，然后扔得到处都是。
（22:14）没错，但这是修炼的一部分，对吗？（22:18）这都是修行测试，对吗？（22:21）我想说，让他们去死吧。（22:26）我不这么认为，我不认为这是修炼。（22:32）看，但这就是问题所在。
(22:33) 你和我都不认为这是培养，因为我们明白他们是在利用培养的概念。 (22:39) 而你最初的道德伦理，他们却用来对付你。 (22:44) 你不能说什么。
(22:46) 如果你说了什么，那就是你的错。 (22:48) 你是问题所在。 (22:49) 那些认为揭露SY的人正在做的事情不应该做的从业者，
(23:03) 我觉得这有点愚蠢。(23:07) 我跟几个人谈过。(23:13) 我想你可以说他们不是媒体人。
(23:19) 但是就我个人而言，我没有多少事情是高度违法的。 (23:24) 我确实有过在学生时代巡回演出的经历，演出期间需要在路上奔波很多小时。 (23:36) 当你描述凯瑟琳的霸凌时，我这边从未发生过。
(23:43) 唯一让我感觉有点像奇怪的中国人、奇怪的共产主义者的事情是，我和乐团里的同伴们聊过天。 (23:57) 我有点告诉他们，嘿，这个地方的一切感觉都很奇怪，关于巡演。 (24:02) 然后有人告发了我。
(24:05) 然后他们就这样认为我是一个危险人物。(24:11) 但是告发我的人已经不在山里了。(24:14) 他早就走了。
(24:16) 我不知道他在做什么。我不知道他是否还在修行。(24:18) 不过，是的，我想今天的一部分内容是，我真的很想知道你对所有事情的看法。
（24:25）你提到他们应该去死，他们做的事情是非法的。（24:31）这似乎很清楚。（24:32）但是，当涉及到实践的道德伦理时，你是否仍然赞同道德伦理？（24:43）到目前为止，我仍然认为自己是基本实践者。
(24:47) 我之所以揭露这些事情，是因为它们直接违背了我的信仰，即真诚、同情和宽容。 (24:59) 据我所知，我所听到的都是教科书上关于人口贩卖、虐待儿童和奴役儿童的内容。（25:12）我的意思是，我认为作为公民或从业者，我有责任揭露所有此类事情，并向执法部门报告此类事情。
(25:28) 我明白了。是的。(25:31) 这很有趣，你知道，你知道那句“如果我想”吗？(25:35) 是的，这里的情况有点像。
(25:37) 那么，为什么你认为执法部门和那些有能力解决一切问题的人，却没有采取任何行动呢？ (25:50) 他们做事非常谨慎，试图通过反宣传或公关活动来应对曝光的问题。（26:04）为什么？巡演这么多年，这么多年来，你知道，这么多儿童被贩卖，可以说，我们不得不参加这些演出，基本上是免费劳动。（26:14）为什么，你知道，无论是政府，还是谁，都没人注意到。
(26:21) 为什么？你明白我的问题吗？ (26:45) 不，我不明白。 (26:50) 是的。所以我想问的是，为什么他们做的事情如此有问题，为什么在你之前没有人意识到，而只有我和另外几个人？ (27:03) 你知道，我认为有两个方面。
(27:07) 一方面是，内心的故事，内心的故事永远不会向外界透露。(27:15) 这是一个故事。另一个故事是，法轮功在政治领域和整个公众意识领域发起了一场非常强大的运动。
(27:31) 所以他们只是操纵公众舆论。(27:38) 所以我认为这两个部分是外界没有注意到法轮功练习中犯罪的主要原因。(27:50) 2024年3月11日，当神韵艺术团从欧洲回来，我不知道，从国外进入美国时，(28:08) 国土安全部的海关和边境保护局官员向神韵舞蹈演员杜丽莎提问。
（28:24）我认识她。是的，这很有趣。（28:25）两天后，法轮功鼓动联邦议员质询国土安全部，称该官员受到中共宣传的影响。
（28:47）这就是他向杜德丽提出过多问题的原因。(28:54) 而且，你知道，他们在政界有很多关系。(29:00) 所以没有人披露这种事情。
(29:03) 这就是为什么我们必须披露这种事情的原因。(29:09) 因为现在有600多人在龙泉村的大院里。(29:19) 是的。
好吧，事情是这样的。（29:21）他们都是年轻人。与许多其他拥有院落的邪教组织不同，他们都是年轻人，都是儿童或从儿童成长为青少年的青少年。
（29:35）这是一种心理折磨，因为他们声称你可以自由离开。（29:43）但正如我所说，你不能自由离开。（29:45）是的。
(29:46) 这不仅仅是你的身体。 (29:48) 只有在休息日或获得许可的情况下，你才能离开校园。 (29:55) 但是，如果你离开，他们会说各种各样的话，比如你不会受到保护。
(29:59) 你不会遇到这些坏事。 (30:02) 是的，是的。
(30:04) 这是情绪化的。这是操纵。对。
(30:06) 怎么会这样？好吧。 (30:08) 还有威胁。我称之为威胁。
（30:11）对。（30:11）心理威胁。对。
（30:13）这也很复杂，因为这种做法正在受到迫害。（30:19）这不是猜测，这是事实。
(30:23) 所以，他们很容易指责别人想要调查他们，想要更好地了解他们。(30:33) 总是问别人对我们做了什么？(30:36) 共产党对我们做了什么？(30:37) 我们从未做过任何会引起怀疑的事情，因为我们显然都同意，有很多事情不应该发生。(30:51) 你能告诉我一些关于你们生活条件的事情吗？(30:53) 多少人住在宿舍里，一间屋子里？(30:58) 多少人？你们家里有有效的防火设备吗？ (31:08) 我不知道有没有防火的东西。
我不知道。 (31:12) 我只知道，这种居住环境肯定是不合法的。 (31:19) 有一次，我们住在类似军用掩体的地方。
(31:23) 所以，我应该说，山区不是一个平等的社会。(31:29) 例如，如果你是07舞蹈演员，你可能住在相当不错的宿舍里，相对较新的宿舍。(31:36) 但是，如果你是一个音乐家，而且不在巡演中，他们基本上会把你放在最糟糕的生活条件下。
(31:42) 所以有一段时间，我和大约20个人住在一起。(31:46) 我们都在一个很长的走廊里排成一排。(31:48) 那其实不能算卧室，因为没有门。
(31:53) 有一扇大门，然后是长长的走廊，两边都是双层床。(31:57) 是的，大约有20个人住在那个区域。(32:01) 20个人？(32:02) 20个人。
(32:03) 是的。(32:05) 所以对我来说，这就像军队，就像军队。(32:12) 你有自己的床还是必须和别人共用？(32:18) 是的，我们必须共用床。
(32:19) 如果你想创造自己的私人空间，那是不被允许的。(32:25) 所以，如果我想拉上窗帘遮挡别人的视线，他们有时会要求你把它拿下来。(32:31) 虽然不是每次都这样，但他们有时会要求你拿掉窗帘，然后进行检查。
(32:36) 他们会检查床铺，这是另一种非常军事化的做法。(32:42) 你多大了？那时候你多大？ (32:45) 我13、14岁。 (32:48) 13、14岁？ (32:49) 所以这是在我巡演之前，是的。
(32:51) 是的。 (32:54) 作为美国公民，你没有自己的身份证。 (33:02) 你的身份证必须交给当局。
（33:07）嗯，实际上，这是非常有趣的事情。（33:09）所以我是体育迷。（33:12）如果你经常看运动员到达训练营训练的视频，（33:19）你会看到他们上交证件，可能是因为有人需要管理这些证件。
(33:24) 情况不是一样吗？ (33:26) 他们把文件交出来，以便管理、保护。 (33:30) 情况不是这样吗？ (33:35) 我不知道。我只想知道你经历的具体情况。
(33:41) 是的。(33:43) 我们一回来就把东西都交出去了。
(33:48) 我们交出了东西。 (33:50) 然后，当我们被允许休两周假时，这很有趣，因为每年我们都有两周假期。 (33:56) 这让你想起了什么？ (33:58) 一个工人，一个公司员工，每年有两周假期。
（34:03）或者学生。（34:04）是的。（34:05）所以这很有趣。
我们有时是学生，有时是公司的员工。（34:12）有时是亿万富翁。（34:14）没错。
没错。（34:15）我很高兴我们在这里达成共识。(34:21) 有一次，我们住在只有两个人的卧室里。
(34:25) 我住在纽约，房间很小，但这对两个人来说简直小得不可思议。(34:33) 门甚至无法完全打开。房间就是这么小。
(34:37) 这样的房间有很多，而且都是一排一排的。(34:43) 我不知道我们是怎么熬过来的，也不知道人们怎么不觉得这有问题。(34:52) 那栋楼是谁的？(34:56) 我不知道。
我想应该不是李本人。可能是一个人，一个随机的从业者。因为李不想承担直接责任。
你能告诉我那栋楼的地址吗？你还记得吗？不，我没有地址。它都属于加利山道140号的一部分。(35:25) 所有地方都属于加雷山道140号。
我相信你知道这一点。(35:30) 申园的地址，对吗？(35:32) 对，地址。所有地方都属于同一个地方。
(35:36) 在院子里，对吗？(35:38) 对，在院子里。(35:42) 这座山与当地居民之间存在很多问题。我相信你知道这一点。
(35:46) 他们可能会说，这是当地居民被中共渗透的结果。(35:51) 但我说，我们有成千上万的中国人涌向一个地区。(35:56) 他们把自己封闭起来，并说他们正在受到迫害。
(35:59) 但是，如果你看看邪教，很多邪教都有这种情况。(36:05) 他们有自己的大院，不是随便就能进去的。(36:08) 如果你问人工智能，问ChatGPT它们怎么看，它们会说这是个问题。
(36:16) 他们会说这是人口贩卖。(36:18) 相信我，我已经问过人工智能了。(36:21) 人工智能也被中共渗透了吗？谁知道呢？(36:27) 显然，任何反对他们或质疑他们的人或事物都受到了中共的影响。
(36:34) 听起来就像一个共产党。 (36:36) 如果你不说主题，听起来就像一个共产党。 (36:40) 他们做同样的事情。
(36:43) 我父亲总是说，做这种事的人，他们只知道这些。 (36:48) 因为他们来自那个环境。 (36:49) 你听说过可疑的死亡案例吗？ (36:55) 客人？比如来访的人？ (36:56) 死亡。
你听说过可疑的死亡案例吗？ (37:02) 我听说过有人从建筑上摔死。 (37:07) 我听说在我之前，有一个男孩离开了。 (37:13) 我不知道。
我不认识他。（37:16）我听说他离开了，而且自杀了。（37:19）就像李在大会上说的那样，这让我想起了朝鲜。
（37:27）在大会上，他说如果你离开，可能会有和那个男孩一样的下场。（37:32）这难道不极端吗……（37:36）我不敢相信这些孩子听了这些话，还当真了。（37:41）这太不可思议了。
(37:45) 那个男孩的名字叫爱德华·荣格。(37:48) 爱德华·荣格，他在2012年自杀了。(37:53) 他的死被用来对付这些孩子。
(37:58) 难以置信。(37:59) 但我确实听说过一个女人的案例。(38:05) 我认识她。
我们一起旅行过。（38:07）她嫁给了一个音乐家。（38:10）她生病了。
我想她患了多发性硬化症。（38:13）她有后路问题。她的脊髓，我想，受到了损害。（38:19）她在封锁期间生病了。
(38:22) 她无法获得治疗，因为她认为自己可以…… (38:27) 她去世了。 (38:30) 真的吗？她叫什么名字？ (38:33) 斯蒂芬妮。 (38:34) 斯蒂芬妮什么？ (38:36) 斯蒂芬妮·陈。
(38:40) 她是美国公民吗？ (38:43) 不是。 (38:44) 据我所知，她来自中国。 (38:48) 她来到这里。
嫁给了她以前的大提琴老师。 (38:54) 所以他们年龄差距很大。 (38:56) 但他们都是中国人。
(38:58) 我不知道那个男人，也就是她的丈夫，是否也去世了。(39:02) 我不知道他是否有名望。(39:04) 整个家族都去世了。
(39:06) 她丈夫的哥哥也是乐团中非常重要的人物。(39:13) 姓邓。(39:14) 长得不错。
(39:20) 你听说过包办婚姻、强迫婚姻吗？ (39:29) 这与他们说的你可以自由离开是同一回事。 (39:34) 你真的可以自由离开吗？ (39:35) 所以他们可能会建议你嫁给某人。 (39:37) 你可以说，我不想。
(39:38) 但是每个人都会说，哦，我必须成为一个优秀的修行者。(39:42) 我必须不顾及自己的感受，无论是我的执着还是我的愿望。(39:48) 我只是要结婚，尤其是和女孩。
(39:51) 我猜她们中的很多人都是这样。 (39:54) 但是，李的太太经常帮人牵线搭桥。 (40:00) 这是我听说的。
(40:02) 同样，这些都不是个人轶事。(40:04) 所以无论我说什么，你都可以一笑而过。(40:07) 你不用太当真。
(40:08) 但是，如果你去过那座山，你就会听说过这些事情。(40:14) 那里发生过一些离奇的死亡事件。(40:16) 那里发生过一些包办婚姻或强迫婚姻。
(40:22) 有很多持学生签证的人从事这种商业旅游。(40:29) 哦，我不知道。(40:31) 这一切都很奇怪。
(40:33) 我离开那个环境已经很多年了，但我仍然觉得它非常有趣。(40:38) 我在推特上看到了关于李氏食堂的视频，还有X上的视频，那些奇怪的建筑。(40:48) 令人难以置信的是，还有很多人不知道这些。
(40:53) 是的。(40:54) 对于所有反对《纽约时报》的人，(40:58) 反对你们所做的事，反对小明，反对你们所做的事，(41:03) 就像你们是修炼者，你们所做的事没有错一样简单，(41:08) 那么你们就可以…… （41:09）我不明白。请再说一遍中文。
（41:12）如果你是法轮功练习者，（41:16）如果你做的事情没有什么可疑或违法的地方，（41:23）那你为什么这么……（41:26）你说，中共，中共，中共。(41:28) 好吧，这并不重要。(41:29) 如果你做的事情没问题，那就会显得大家都很傻。
(41:33) 但是如果你紧张，(41:34) 如果你紧张，(41:35) 那就更可疑了。(41:39) 是的。(41:41) 让我们拭目以待。
(41:43) 你似乎认为一切很快就会尘埃落定。(41:48) 我其实有个问题想问你。(41:50) 我听说《大纪元时报》前首席财务官比尔·阮（Bill Nguyen）被释放了。
(41:55) 你知道他现在的情况吗？ (41:57) 不，他没有被释放。 (41:59) 我们不能保释。 (42:02) 他被保释了。
(42:06) 他被保释了。 (42:09) 一旦他被保释，他还能被起诉吗？ (42:13) 是的。 (42:14) 他仍然面临纽约南区法院（SDNY）的指控。
(42:24) 对。 (42:24) 我应该说这是SDNY-CCP。（42:28）SDNY-CCP。
（42:29）你必须在所有事情上都加上CCP。（42:31）你是什么意思？（42:32）我不明白。（42:33）SDNY-CCP，是什么意思？（42:34）这意味着CCP也渗透到了纽约法院。
（42:38）渗透到一切事物中。（42:42）也许吧。（42:43）你可以把这个故事告诉达米恩·威廉姆斯。
（42:46）你认识达米恩·威廉姆斯吗？（42:48）听起来很熟悉。（42:50）他是雾会议上的那个人吗？(42:53) 达米恩·威廉姆斯是纽约南区联邦检察官办公室的检察官。(42:58) 我知道了。
(42:59) 这很有趣。(43:00) 他起诉了郭文贵，迈尔斯·郭。(43:05) 我想李洪志将是下一个。
(43:08) 你知道的。(43:10) 我们中国人不会在美国干好事。(43:15) 对。
(43:24) 你妈妈对我的看法如何？(43:27) 我们完全没有谈过。(43:29) 所以。(43:31) 我妈妈。
(43:33) 她与阿什利·钟的妈妈非常相似。 (43:38) 是的。 (43:40) 我听过阿什利妈妈的一段音频。
(43:47) 劝她不要和你说话。 (43:51) 劝她不要管这件事。 (43:55) 我妈妈更过分一点。
(43:56) 她个性固执又迷信。(44:03) 所以她真的相信。(44:04) 如果我不站在正确的一边，就会发生不好的事情。
(44:08) 她坚信这一点。(44:10) 对我来说，离开已经是一件大事了。(44:15) 但她却能自圆其说。
（44:17）辩解，辩解。（44:18）她说服自己，这一切都是李对我的计划。（44:23）尽管我（44:25）很长一段时间，我都告诉她我不想去那里。
(44:28) 然而，你知道，她会对我施加心理压力。(44:31) 她会让我感到沮丧。(44:33) 我只想让她闭嘴。
（44:36）没错。显然，我不想对她说这些。（44:39）但这就是效果。
（44:40）我希望她不要谈论这些事情。（44:42）所以我会说，你知道，我仍然是一个实践者。（44:46）我不是。
我不是修行者。 (44:48) 但是为了安抚她，让她不再谈论这个话题。 (44:51) 我会告诉她，我只是为了维持和平。
(44:54) 然后她就会用这些话来攻击我。(44:57) 她会说，你看，你说过你是个修行者，或者你说过你想回去。(45:01) 真的，我确实说过吗？(45:05) 她没有。
(45:07) 你知道怎么让她闭嘴吗？ (45:10) 怎么让你的母亲闭嘴？ (45:14) 约束。 (45:15) 约束令。 (45:16) 是的。
如何限制你母亲对你的操控。 (45:20) 你考虑过一些方法吗？ (45:24) 问题是，你知道，我可以屏蔽她的联系方式。 (45:27) 我不住在家里。
我可以屏蔽她的联系方式。 (45:30) 但是，我并不是没有听说过有人谈论过家庭生活团体对家庭的影响。 (45:38) 所以，从个人经验来看，很不幸，你不得不离婚。 (45:43) 没错。
这一切都归因于你离开了这一行。没错。对于我的家庭来说，我父亲不再是一名从业者。
(45:53) 他完全理解我。他实际上非常开明。(45:57) 他说，你知道，如果你想回到山里，只要你能以此谋生，这就是我关心的全部。
(46:03) 我非常感谢他能和我妈妈讲道理。(46:08) 但是，你知道，如果我完全切断和妈妈的联系，他会怎么样？ (46:12) 他如何应对这种心理压力？ (46:15) 所有这些压力都会压在他身上，而她会把所有事情都怪罪到他头上。 (46:21) 你无法想象那是什么感觉。
(46:24) 也许你可以学习，你可以分辨出哪些话是你说的，哪些话是你父亲说的。(46:32) 把母亲所说的一切都记录下来，然后放到网上。(46:36) 对。
她就会沉默了。(46:39) 事情就是这样。(46:42) 这就是我想做的。
(46:45) 即使和你说话，我也希望她能明白，我不想和她过同样的生活，也不想和她看待世界的方式一样。 (46:54) 因为我妈妈不是修炼者，因为她相信道德伦理。 (47:00) 她之所以修炼是因为她认为我修炼让她得救了。
（47:06）我想修炼，但她开始修炼时我才三岁。（47:09）所以她说是我带她入门的，是吗？（47:14）我当时才三岁。（47:17）我不认为你母亲是修炼者。(47:21) 我认为自己是修炼者，我认为你母亲是一个操纵她自己的小儿子的人，吃掉自己的儿子。
(47:33) 是的，不养育她自己的非常非常父亲。(47:41) 所以，你知道，他是一个吃小孩的人。(47:44) 我称你母亲为吃小孩的人。
(47:46) 她需要的是录音机。(47:50) 你需要的是录音机，把她说的每一句话都录下来，然后放到网上。(47:55) 太不可思议了。
是的。(47:55) 在此之前，请查阅当地法律。(48:00) 没错。
这很复杂。是的，是的。（48:03）但我的意思是，你有没有听说过任何从业者说，如果你离开，我也离开？（48:09）你听说过吗？没有。
对。 (48:12) 听到什么？ (48:13) 所以目前我的处境就像我妈，她说，如果你决定离开修行，我也会决定离开修行。 (48:23) 所以她……我完全不懂她的修行方法。
(48:30) 我不知道她是如何从修炼中获益的。(48:33) 但我确实知道，她认为自己的责任是确保我成为一名修炼者。(48:38) 我是一名修行者。
(48:40) 不幸的是，我是一个敬畏上帝的人。(48:42) 我就是不相信李。(48:43) 我不相信李是造物主。
(48:45) 我相信有造物主。(48:47) 我不相信是李。(48:50) 你需要考虑一下。
(48:55) 你妈妈没那么难对付。 (48:59) 不，不是她难对付。 (49:02) 如果我对付她，我的家人怎么办？ (49:05) 我该怎么办？ (49:06) 我爸爸怎么办？对吗？ (49:08) 我都听说了。
(49:10) 你之所以还有这种想法，是因为你仍然把你妈妈对你现在的控制放在心上。 (49:18) 如果你爸爸有录音机，你也有录音机。 (49:21) 无论他说什么，无论他何时说，无论他何时玩，他都会保持沉默。
(49:23) 但这对我爸爸有什么好处？(49:27) 过去20年，他从未被这样利用过。(49:33) 但如果他被迫离婚，不得不放弃一半财产呢？(49:42) 也许你应该怪你妈妈，怪她把你送到人口贩卖小组。(49:50) 但事情就是这样。
(49:52) 作为一个经历过一切的人，我不想…… (49:57) 我不会牵连我的母亲。 (49:58) 我不认为她做了什么伤害我的事，但结果是有害的。 (50:03) 这说得通吗？ (50:09) 我不知道我是否应该对你讲这些。
(50:16) 你仍然对你儿子的母亲有感情。 (50:22) 但她对你做了20多年，这证明她对你没有爱。 (50:31) 但事实上，你知道，很多父母，尤其是母亲， (50:40) 如果他们有一个儿子或一个女儿，情况是一样的。
(50:49) 我并不是在问是否还有其他人也这样。 (50:51) 我只是说她对你的所作所为不是爱。 (50:54) 当然，当然。
(51:10) 我只知道她是个非常极端的女人。 (51:13) 而且你的思想也很极端。 (51:17) 这是一个极具爆炸性的个性。
(51:21) 所以很难相处。(51:32) 你什么时候认识我的？(51:39) 我也是认识你的朋友的朋友，文章中也提到了他们。(51:46) 什么文章？(51:48) 《纽约时报》的文章，抱歉。
（51:51）那篇文章里。（51:54）我认识文章里的每个人，因为我和他们一起长大，尤其是那些音乐家。（52:00）我和他们一起长大。
（52:03）我从他们那里听说过你。（52:05）现在仍然如此。（52:07）我睡前经常听你的播客。
(52:11) 有些人觉得这非常…… (52:13) 非常刺激。 (52:15) 但我听着很舒服。 (52:17) 很放松，你知道吗？ (52:43) 他们声称自己是非暴力的。
(52:48) 他们声称自己会做junchai。 (52:51) 显然，上次他们利用Lana Han跟踪你，他们似乎已经知道你的位置之类的事情。 (52:59) 这非常可怕。
(53:00) 他们不玩公平。 (53:03) 他们非常黑暗。(53:06) 也祝你好运。
(53:08) 我真的希望正义得到伸张。(53:18) 你能不能考虑有一天把我们的对话放到我的频道上？(53:25) 今天就可以。(53:27) 今天就可以。
(53:29) 真的吗？ (53:30) 是的，我不介意。 (53:31) 我介意的是为了我妈妈，为了我仍然是一个儿子，你知道吗？ (53:40) 只是隐藏我的完整身份。 (53:45) 显然，如果人们认识我，他们知道是我。
(53:49) 我不知道你是否愿意这样做。(53:50) 我有点觉得我的处境有点像阿什利。(53:56) 我个人承担的风险更大一些。
(53:59) 当然，不是因为我个人，而是因为我的家庭。(54:04) 所以这很复杂。(54:04) 但说实话，我上了大学，还上了音乐学校。
(54:13) 我总是避免向别人提起我的过去，因为那并不是一件值得骄傲的事情。 (54:24) 那很光荣。 (54:26) 我又回到了过去。
(54:29) 是的。(54:30) 你有没有想过我为什么不怕提起我的过去？(54:37) 我的过去与法轮功的关系比你更密切，对吗？(54:41) 对。(54:43) 为什么我不怕？(54:48) 这是个好问题。
(54:49) 我想对你来说，这样说并不贬低你，但你失去了时间。(55:00) 你失去了资源，对吗？(55:04) 所以他们说你没有那么多东西可以失去。(55:07) 我并不是说我比你失去的东西更多。
(55:10) 但不知为何，你处于这样的境地，说出真相是顺理成章的事情。(55:21) 对我来说，我仍然想过正常的生活，这就是为什么我不是《纽约时报》文章的主角。(55:28) 我只是他们采访的一个人，对吗？(55:32) 让我告诉你我的答案。
(55:35) 正如你所说，我并非一无所有。(55:38) 每个人都有失去的东西。(55:41) 也许你认为我的生活非常简单，物质方面也很有限，但从我的角度来看，我仍然有很多东西可以失去。
(55:53) 我想我不害怕公开过去的原因是我已经公开了过去赐予我的珍贵礼物，并且毫无保留地与听众分享。(56:10) 你也有类似的礼物，但你并没有挖掘它。(56:17) 你害怕这样做。
(56:18) 你拒绝面对它。(56:20) 你认为这是负担。(56:24) 这不是负担，但我要告诉你，这是种财富。
(56:28) 你可以打开这份礼物。(56:30) 这是一份非常珍贵的礼物，因为只有少数人经历过同样的事情。(56:35) 这种经历中包含着非常珍贵的礼物。
(56:42) 深入体会这种经历。(56:43) 找到这份礼物，并毫无保留地与他人分享。(56:47) 我明白你的意思，但这样做有点可耻。
(56:53) 如果你能想象出以前信奉邪教的人的心理，他们退出邪教。 (57:01) 有时他们会分享自己的故事，并因此变得非常有名。 (57:07) 如果他们接受采访，他们的故事在网上广为流传，很多人都会关注。
(57:14) 我没有那种渴望被认可、与练习相关的愿望。 (57:20) 我只想诚实。 (57:25) 我希望一切都能结束，这样我就能在家里得到安宁。
(57:31) 我不想强迫你做任何事。(57:34) 我只是想和你分享我的想法。(57:38) 你说你只想过正常的生活。
(57:41) 不，这是不可能的。(57:44) 你目前的生活并不正常。(57:47) 这并不取决于你。
(57:48) 这取决于你的经历，但你无法改变你的经历。 (57:52) 当你提到羞耻时，你只是在想我。 (57:59) 为什么我一点不觉得羞耻？ (58:03) 非常重要的原因是，你可以从过去的经历中找到非常宝贵的东西。
(58:14) 这些对你来说非常重要。(58:16) 你说你想要一切结束。(58:19) 但我把一切都视为非常珍贵的开始。
(58:26) 对你来说，这是一个非常珍贵的开始。(58:28) 这不是结束，而是开始。
(58:30) 这是真正旅程的开始。(58:34) 深入内心，回顾过去。(58:39) 过去到底发生了什么？(58:41) 你到底得到了什么？(58:42) 你之所以感到羞愧，是因为你用得失来衡量一切。
(58:49) 你得到了什么，失去了什么。 (58:51) 你用这种标准来衡量一切。 (58:55) 不，我不会用这种标准来衡量事情。
(58:57) 我评价事物的方式是看它们如何绽放或滋养我的生活。 (59:05) 我的生活如何成长？ (59:06) 我认为你也在成长。 (59:08) 当你真正成长，当你真正分享这种成长时，你不会感到羞耻。
(59:14) 人们会感谢你，而不是看不起你。(59:17) 人们会感谢你，就像人们感谢我一样。(59:21) 有些朋友对此不理解。
(59:26) 我想从我们的谈话中，你可以看出。(59:29) 我经常拿练习和SY开玩笑。(59:33) 对我来说，这只是一个喝酒的故事。
(59:36) 如果我有亲密的朋友，我不会告诉他们，嘿，过去我遇到过这种事。 (59:42) 这就是为什么我说我去过纽约的寄宿学校，这就是我的意思。 (59:47) 不，我并不想因为我的过去而向他们解释我是谁。
(59:53) 但我确实觉得发生在我身上的这件事有点有趣。(59:57) 仅此而已。(59:59) 这就是为什么我不能像你一样站出来反对。
(1:00:02) 因为我对这个话题不感兴趣，也许现在说这个还为时过早。 (1:00:09) 而且，正如你所说，我还在成长和成熟。 (1:00:13) 但在我看来，这很简单。
(1:00:17) 比如，让我们想象一下李做了什么。(1:00:23) 所以李，你知道，没有受过教育。(1:00:27) 有人说他在一个非常地方性的环境中与政府有牵连。
(1:00:32) 你知道这件事吗？ (1:00:33) 他就像当地人一样，就像…… (1:00:38) 我看到过他穿制服的照片。 (1:00:43) 所以他和政府有些关系。 (1:00:45) 但他无论如何都不是一个成功的人。
(1:00:49) 突然之间，他脱颖而出，成为公众人物，(1:00:53) 宣扬道德，教导人们如何成为自己的主宰。(1:01:01) 这就是他的心理。(1:01:04) 我不知道李在迫害开始时是怎么想的。
（1:01:10）巧合的是，他在迫害开始前两年就离开了中国。（1:01:14）不知道这是不是计划好的。（1:01:15）不知道这是不是意外。
(1:01:16) 他来了。(1:01:17) 迫害开始了。(1:01:18) 已经持续了25年。
(1:01:21) 很多人为此奉献了毕生精力，甚至牺牲了家庭。 (1:01:27) 他创建了几家公司，你知道，收入高达数亿美元。 (1:01:34) 这就是李。
(1:01:35) 我们现在知道他是谁了。 (1:01:37) 我是说，当我上山时，我才真正理解李是谁。 (1:01:41) 不是个值得害怕的人。
(1:01:43) 我曾与李一起巡演。 (1:01:44) 有一次，我在法乔尼亚节期间待在外面。(1:01:48) 因为我讨厌法乔尼亚节。
(1:01:49) 太无聊了。(1:01:51) 但我们还是参加了法乔尼亚节。(1:01:52) 我基本上是逃避恐惧。
(1:01:57) 有一次我在外面碰到了李。(1:01:59) 李说，(1:02:02) 类似这样的话。(1:02:03) 我只是笑了笑，你知道。
(1:02:05) 那时，我没有把他视为神一般的创造者。(1:02:11) 他只是一个普通人。(1:02:12) 我无法想象如果没有他，我的生活会变得多么平淡。
(1:02:20) 你知道吗？ (1:02:21) 就像，当然，你说我的经历非常珍贵、非常特别。 (1:02:28) 对我来说，这并非我的个性。 (1:02:32) 这样说合理吗？ (1:02:33) 是的。
(1:02:34) 我理解。 (1:02:35) 所以，我的一些朋友，你知道，他们想编造一个故事。 (1:02:40) 根据他们的经历编成一部文学作品。
(1:02:42) 我不想。 (1:02:43) 我只想结婚，组建一个家庭，你知道。(1:02:48) 我的一些山区朋友是我一生的挚友。
(1:02:51) 因为我们经历了同样的事情。(1:02:53) 我希望每个人都过得很好。(1:02:55) 我希望看到我的妈妈，(1:03:00) 我希望看到这一切。
(1:03:01) 你知道，我妈妈是否已经明白如何成为一个更好的人？ (1:03:09) 是的。 (1:03:09) 她是否已经变得更优秀？ (1:03:11) 没有。 (1:03:11) 这有意义吗？ (1:03:13) 她明白，你知道。
(1:03:14) 最后一句话。(1:03:15) 我不明白最后一句话。(1:03:18) 她明白如何成为一个更好的人。
(1:03:21) 如何成为一个更好的人。 (1:03:23) 但她真的没有成为一个更好的人。 (1:03:39) 我想问你。
(1:03:41) 我想问你。 (1:03:42) 你来自中国内地。 (1:03:51) 为什么你不像他们那样？ (1:03:53) 你来到这里。
(1:03:53) 为什么你没有变得更虔诚、更狂热？ (1:04:11) 就像你说的，得失，对吗？ (1:04:15) 资产和负债。 (1:04:17) 我不知道。 (1:04:18) 我不懂他们的英语。
(1:04:19) 你是说我的情况也是这样。(1:04:23) 我认为这是得失的问题。(1:04:26) 你是说其他从业者也是这样。
(1:04:31) 是的。(1:04:32) 我认为他们中的大多数也感到害怕。(1:04:35) 他们害怕如果离开这件事，(1:04:39) 接下来会发生什么？(1:04:40) 但这一切只是为了吓唬你。
(1:04:42) 相信我。(1:04:43) 就像我在山上时一样。(1:04:45) 你知道合同的事吗？(1:04:47) 那真是…… (1:04:48) 我现在还提起合同，是因为我当时在场。
(1:04:56) 太荒谬了。(1:04:59) 难以置信。(1:05:00) 我们承诺过永远不碰这些普通的东西。
（1:05:07）我不玩游戏。（1:05:12）但所有这些东西。（1:05:15）我们认为，如果我们掉进这个陷阱一次，就完了。
（1:05:23）是不是很搞笑？（1:05:26）就像……（1:05:27）非常可怕。（1:05:29）危险。（1:05:30）是的，真的。
(1:05:31) 当我想到这件事时，真的觉得不可思议。 (1:05:35) 当时真的很害怕。 (1:05:37) 我该怎么说呢？ (1:05:46) 事关他们的生命。
(1:05:50) 他们的生活。 (1:05:51) 他们生死攸关的选择。 (1:06:02) 是的。
(1:06:10) 那么，你有什么想告诉我的吗？ (1:06:27) 是的。 (1:06:31) 26岁。(1:06:37) 他现在有自己的生活。
(1:06:37) 他的立场是什么？(1:06:40) 他陪我走完了整个旅程。(1:06:43) 他给了我很多安慰和支持。(1:06:48) 我也和他交流了我的想法。
(1:06:52) 他现在在得克萨斯州达拉斯找到了一份工作。(1:06:56) 在一家很好的公司。(1:06:59) 他过着自己的生活，他告诉我，他可能会在下周向母亲宣布离开(1:07:08) 法轮功。
我们有什么，哦，我明白了，但他（1:07:14）和我情况一样，对吗？据他母亲（1:07:18）所知，他仍然参与其中，对吗？是的。我和他的情况一样，那（1:07:23）他为什么还没有告诉她他要离开？他为什么没告诉她什么？告诉他妈妈。（1:07:30）因为他还没有经济独立。
我明白了，但他很快就会独立了。（1:07:36）他现在就是。对，所以他现在才告诉她。
是的。对我来说，我（1:07:42）等到我也搬出去，经济上也独立了，才告诉（1:07:47）我妈妈，但猜猜怎么着？我妈妈不相信我。（1:07:49）她相信，对吗？你知道，所以这有点棘手。
请问，（1:08:00）他是否像尊重他妈妈一样尊重他妈妈？他对他妈妈仍然参与法轮功活动有何看法，（1:08:07）他有什么看法？关于法轮功问题，他和他妈妈没有任何共同的想法（1:08:17）。她让他学法轮功吗？她试图说服他（1:08:29）定期学法，但最终他下定决心，决定告诉他的（1:08:39）母亲，我退出，我不干了。是的，好的，这就是问题所在。
我想说绝大多数（1:08:45）年轻的孩子要么天真无邪，要么完全（1:08:51）与世隔绝。是的。实际上，只有少数人（1:08:57）仍然处于中间状态，他们既（1:09:01）相信，又不会付诸行动。
这就是现状，对吗？我认为（1:09:07）还有第三条路，那就是反击，反击。他们（1:09:14）做错了。他们伤害了许多人，尤其是他们（1:09:19）自己的孩子。
当然。在整个事件中，法轮功的父母（1:09:26）是伤害自己孩子的罪魁祸首。是的，没错。
所以我们需要反击（1:09:32）。我们不能袖手旁观，我们要反击。没错。
我同意（1:09:42）这样做是有价值的。他们的说法非常具有讽刺意味，他们声称自己在（1:09:51）拯救他人，但他们自己却需要被拯救。是的。
这非常、有点（1:09:58）像电影情节。应该有人拍一部电影，（1:10:03）这会是一部大片，讲述一群相信自己正在拯救（1:10:09）世界，但实际上却遭到虐待的儿童的故事。是的。
这简直令人难以置信。事实上，有（1:10:17）一位纪录片导演正在拍摄一部电影。你想和他谈谈吗？（1:10:24）当然。
我想我听说过他，但我需要他的联系方式。（1:10:30）好的。我会把联系方式给你。
好的。听起来不错。
（1:10:38）好的。那么，我们就算聊过了。
是的。我希望以后能联系，（1:10:53）我们可以交换想法，对吗？我非常愿意进行这样的对话。（1:11:03）我想现在，我想保留，你知道，这张照片，这个名字，不管是什么，（1:11:09）我可以保持匿名。如果你觉得可以的话，如果你觉得公开这段录音没有用，（1:11:15）如果我不公开，那就取决于你了。
但（1:11:26）也许你可以说，比如，作为一个音乐家，前音乐家，我不知道，这取决于你。（1:11:31）我只是想为了我的，实际上是我的家人，一直都是我的家人，而不是我自己。（1:11:37）我并不在乎你是否同意。
谢谢。我会停止录音（1:11:48），然后问几个其他问题。当然。
好的。当然。当然。
陳旭@perth 